Scott Barry Kaufman (00:00):
Oh man. I get riled up about this because it seems so obvious, but I'm like, I don't see that attitude of like, yes, a crappy thing happened to me, whatever. And I got this.
Elizabeth Koch (00:10):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Koch. We all live inside our own personal private perception box built by our genes and the physical, social, and cultural environment in which we were born and raised. In this podcast, we explore how, although the walls of this mental box are always present, they can't expand in states like awe, wonder and curiosity or contract in response to anxiety, fear, and anger. I'd like to introduce our esteemed hosts to incredible and distinguished minds. Dr. Heather Berlin, professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City. And Dr. Christophe Koch, chief scientist for the Tiny blue.foundation and the current meritorious investigator and former president of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome to the Science of Perception Box.
Dr. Heather Berlin (01:16):
Hi everybody. Welcome to Science of Perception Box. I'm your cohost, Dr. Heather Berlin, and
Dr. Christof Koch (01:21):
I'm your other cohost, Dr. Christophe K.
Dr. Heather Berlin (01:24):
Every week we feature an aspect of the science of perception box, highlighting the latest research together with our expert guest. I'm excited to bring on a cognitive scientist whose personal mission is to reframe how we measure intelligence and help people access their untapped potential. Scott Berry Kaufman. Scott Berry Kaufman is a professor of psychology at Columbia University and director of the Center for Human Potential. He has written and edited 11 books with the most recent being Rise Above, overcome a Victim Mindset if you're trying to shed what's held you back in the past. This conversation will give you some ideas on how to move forward. So first we want to open up with our battle with the victim mindset. So Christophe, has there ever been an event in your life where you felt powerless like a victim, and that really affected your outlook on the future?
Dr. Christof Koch (02:17):
Never really as a victim. I mean, as a school kid, I got beaten up at times because I was too much of a teacher's pet.
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:24):
First of all. I'm sorry to hear that. I never knew you were beaten up as a kid.
Dr. Christof Koch (02:28):
Yeah. In fact, at the school, they had to let me out earlier. So my parents talked to the teacher and then they had to let me out earlier so the big kids wouldn't get me.
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:35):
Oh my God. I'm sorry. I didn't know that.
Dr. Christof Koch (02:39):
I haven't talked about it in like 50 years.
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:42):
Wow. But
Dr. Christof Koch (02:43):
I don't think it traumatized me in any way that I can now as adult ascertain. What about you? Have you had times in your life when you felt powerless and as a victim?
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:53):
I had very, the classic Disney, Cinderella story, evil stepmother when I was growing up, and she was pretty cruel to me. And I even had two half siblings who she was very nice to. Scott, welcome to the podcast. How do you define a victim mindset?
Scott Barry Kaufman (03:14):
Oh boy. I define a victim mindset as a dynamic mindset. I get all these emails being like, I loved your book. I perfectly described my ex-boyfriend or whatever, and I'm like, look, this is a book for everyone. So it's a dynamic mindset that we can all get into throughout the course of our day. It can vary. We can be triggered. We can all have our moments. And when we're in this mindset, we blame all the world for our problems. We don't take responsibility for anything we can do. We're helpless, essentially. And the most important part of the victim mindset is we don't move forward with our life, with agency or with productive rumination. In the field of psychology, they distinguish between productive rumination and ana rumination is the technical
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Term
Scott Barry Kaufman (03:56):
For it, which is Yiddish. When you're stuck in OG rumination, you are constantly spinning this wheel over and over again about that one thing that happened to you when you were three, and you forget that you are now in the year 2025, and in the moment there are so many things you can do to realize your higher potential.
Dr. Christof Koch (04:15):
So victim mindset is not just, this is me and my ex, I was a victim. But it's generalized to all sorts of circumstances.
Scott Barry Kaufman (04:22):
It's a broadened, generalized dynamic mindset that applies anywhere you go. Perhaps you are in line at Starbucks and you're like, oh man, I really should be at the front of this line because I've suffered more than everyone in this line. Do
Dr. Christof Koch (04:38):
People think that?
Scott Barry Kaufman (04:39):
I think a lot of people do. Well, this book stemmed from my research on vulnerable narcissism, which is entitlement to special privileges because you've suffered and you think you've suffered the most. But I like to say suffering isn't a competition, and it's a much healthier mindset, which I call the empowerment mindset to think about all the things that you can do to move forward with your life with purpose and a sense of growth.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:05):
Have you ever had a sort of victim mindset in your life? Yeah,
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:09):
For sure. I mean, I'm human too.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:11):
You are?
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:13):
Yeah. Yeah. These things, you're surprised
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:17):
Slightly,
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:18):
But these things are totally seasonal. When things are going well, it's a lot easier to have an empowerment mindset.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:27):
So it's fluid, it's flexible. It's not like you get locked
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:28):
Into. So it's not a personality trait.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:30):
Yeah,
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:30):
It's both a trait and a state. It's mind. But I, I want to focus not on the trait today. I want to focus on the dynamic mindset that we all can go in, but it also is a trait. Everything is, every psychological thing if we want to really nerd out about it is both a state and a trait. There's individual differences in virtually every psychological trait you can possibly look at, but it's something we definitely can come in and out of at different points of our day and our life when things are not going well. It's our default state. So that was the insight that Martin Seligman and his colleague had recently is that they got their theory completely wrong completely to
Dr. Christof Koch (06:08):
Learn helplessness.
Scott Barry Kaufman (06:10):
Correct. They got their theory of learn helplessness wrong because
Dr. Christof Koch (06:12):
Maybe you can explain that theory.
Scott Barry Kaufman (06:13):
I would be happy to, because they started off shocking. Rats and dogs. Well, dogs. Dogs, really Dogs well
Dr. Christof Koch (06:22):
Extended the rat. They've never been called out on that.
Scott Barry Kaufman (06:23):
Well, we can do that if we want right now. I'm happy to call them out on that. They started their career putting these dogs in cages and keeping the door open a little bit so the dog could leave. And they were curious. The research question is, how many shocks will it take before they don't even attempt to leave anymore? Do they learn helplessness that even if they're free in their mind, they're in their own mental prison? And so that was the research question, and they found that it didn't take that many shocks before this settled in, but then they generalized it to humans
Dr. Christof Koch (07:01):
If they couldn't control it, that was a critical difference because they had these different group. The dogs had somehow control the shock. They did not have this learned helplessness compared to the ones that had no idea what prompted what. Great. The electric shock.
Scott Barry Kaufman (07:16):
Yeah. So feeling, yes, because locus control, you feel like you're not in control of your life story anymore or your future, or I don't know how the life story thing applies to dogs,
Dr. Heather Berlin (07:29):
But so then how did it shift? So this has been in the public ethos for a very long time. So what changed?
Scott Barry Kaufman (07:36):
After enough studies on humans, they realized that their theory was not exactly correct in humans. They found that the default state in humans is helplessness. It's not what humans learn. So what is learned is hopefulness, and that's something that dogs don't have the opportunity to do.
Dr. Heather Berlin (07:54):
But evolutionarily speaking, why would, it doesn't seem like it makes sense on the surface why helplessness would be the default stage.
Dr. Christof Koch (08:02):
Are you seeing the baby is helpless naturally, innately? Well,
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:05):
The mindset is
Dr. Heather Berlin (08:06):
The mindset.
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:07):
Oh, certainly. Yeah. Oh yeah, baby. That's the best example of aless mindset, of helplessness you could possibly give. You're just crying all the time,
Dr. Heather Berlin (08:14):
But they literally are helpless and they need to recruit help. But why would our default state be
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:19):
Helpless? There's something very primal about a helpless state which signals to others and gets us reward. I mean, it's actually pretty rewarding, even especially in the social media climate we live in to signal victimhood. And a lot of, I talk in the book about it's independent, victimhood is independent from a victim mindset. I want to be very clear before I get canceled. Right? There
Dr. Heather Berlin (08:43):
Are actual victims.
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:44):
Totally. There are horrible things that happen to us, and of course we want the utmost of compassion for all that. But these things can actually come apart. You can have been the recipient of a horrible thing in the world and not have a victim mindset. You could not have had anything happen to you and generate a victim mindset. So with the difference in
Dr. Christof Koch (09:03):
People, that person, something bad happens, they think of themselves, a victim, and person B, the same thing happens, but they say, okay, this is bad luck. And they go on, is it genetically, is it the different upbringing? Is it because they locate the locus of control within them that ultimately
Scott Barry Kaufman (09:23):
I'm the actor binging bing. Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. Part two of the book is kind of looking at what are those characteristics of the opposite. One thing is you see a lot of people who don't fall into this victim mindset. Often they've learned to be lucky people. It's not. They're objectively lucky people. They're more open to luck in their lives. They're more receptive to things all around them. So they don't just focus on the negative in every situation and expect a negative in every situation. Gratefulness is another big part of it. There's not just having gratitude for good things that happen to you, but they can be grateful for the crap that happens to us. They be like, oh, what can I learn from this situation? So that's definitely a big part of it. You said the Jeanette, you brought the dirty word G. The G word. And I'm glad you did
Dr. Christof Koch (10:09):
Dirty. I mean, we all products of our genes in our environment.
Scott Barry Kaufman (10:12):
Oh, totally. But I mean, it is still a dirty word in a lot of circles because in a lot of these kinds of studies, they don't control for genes. And then they make claims about environment like your parents. It's your parents' fault. And it's like, well, it is, and this is the point I'm making in my book. It is to a large degree, it's because your parents gave you their genes. That's why it's their fault.
Dr. Heather Berlin (10:35):
But aren't there genes for resilience? Two people experience the same trauma. One goes on to develop PTSD another. They're finding that there are genetic differences and there's a protective factor
Scott Barry Kaufman (10:45):
For sure. I mean, I don't need to lecture you guys on how everything is nature nurture, and I don't believe in genetic determinism. There are certain dispositions that absolutely color your world and make it more likely that you'll view something as traumatic. You can take the same two people who've raised in the same family and they had the same experiences, and one grows up being like, what a traumatic childhood I had. Mother was always yelling at us. And the other one may have more of a sunny disposition is like, what had a great childhood? And it's like, wait, what? You both had the same experiences?
Dr. Heather Berlin (11:18):
That's the perception box. The perception
Scott Barry Kaufman (11:20):
I Schwarzenegger,
Dr. Heather Berlin (11:22):
I don't know how this relates to No, he grew up
Dr. Christof Koch (11:26):
With a twin or with a younger brother. Oh, that's true. And he had an abusive father, and then he died in a drunk accident.
Dr. Heather Berlin (11:35):
He became an alcoholic. How does this then relate to kind a negative self schema?
Scott Barry Kaufman (11:43):
I'm a personality psychologist as well as creativity, but really I'm really into different sources of personality variation and the trait neuroticism. I don't think we really realized just how pervasive it is across all internalizing disorders. I mean, some people argued it's the trait that it's the central nucleus.
Dr. Christof Koch (12:00):
It's one
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:02):
Of the big five, right? It's one of the big five. Yeah. Oh, I can do a little lecture on the ocean. The Oh, ocean. Ocean, okay. We got openness to experience, which is my favorite. My favorite is openness to experience. I score 99% on that one. And then we have neuroticism, which is literally your brain is wired to constantly feed it. Negative thoughts is basically how we could put it. And emotions, you're just constantly think Woody Allen constantly. You're walking out the say like, oh, oh my God. And it can be funny when you verbalize it out loud, the neurotic mind. It can be kind of funny, but it's not so funny when you're living it. Extroversion, introversion, agreeableness, and then conscientiousness.
Dr. Heather Berlin (12:39):
Well, we didn't go in the order of ocean.
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:41):
Oh, you're reminded
Dr. Heather Berlin (12:41):
Conscientiousness go.
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:43):
Yes.
Dr. Christof Koch (12:43):
So are you implying there's a relationship between the narcissism trait and victim?
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:49):
Yes, but vulnerable narcissism. So there's two different types of narcissism. Everyone thinks narcissism. They conjure up a bravado kind of narcissism, which is like, I'm the best,
(12:59):
But my research has really dived into quieter form and it's neurotic. We can call it also, could we call it neurotic narcissism? There's something very self excessively, self-focused about depression, for instance. Now, when I say that, I'm not at all trying to diminish the real suffering of people who are depressed, but there is something about you, you get stuck in this default mode way of thinking about yourself that you just can't stop ruminating about yourself in a lot of ways and how this is going wrong and that's going wrong and this is going wrong. So it's a unique form of narciss.
Dr. Heather Berlin (13:35):
But are the other types of narcissists ruminating about themselves in a positive
Scott Barry Kaufman (13:40):
Way? Yes, they really are. They're like, they're just obsessed with admiration and accolades,
Dr. Christof Koch (13:46):
So they would not fall into the victim.
Scott Barry Kaufman (13:50):
Well, the tie I wanted to make was between vulnerable narcissism and a victim mindset, we all can, can fall prey to it. It sort of takes a different flavor. It's interesting to think about the different flavors of how these things can manifest these selves. The kind of victim mindset that you see involved in narcissism is a very woe as me type of victim mindset of like, oh, I'm not appreciated enough for my suffering. Whereas the grandiose one is, I'm not appreciated enough because people don't realize how great I am. So it's a little bit of a different flavor.
Dr. Heather Berlin (14:21):
So do you think social media encourages the victim mentality?
Scott Barry Kaufman (14:24):
Well, I had conversation with Jean Twenge about this. She wrote the great book Generations, and I was like, is this current generation a nation of vulnerable narcissists? She's like, yep. She's like, you nailed it. Because prior generations, it really was about grandiose narcissism. But the self-esteem movement in the eighties gave rise, I think, to grandiose narcissism.
Dr. Heather Berlin (14:47):
But I think it's a societal problem because when you think about stuff like the coddling to American mind, the cod mind, this started with safe spaces and trigger warnings and everyone can't handle anything uncomfortable. And then the professors capitulated. And it was also from pressure from parents. Oh, I don't want my kids to have a bad grade. I used to, when I was teaching at Vassar, would have students come, they would hand in the essay before the essay was due so they could find out what they needed to do to change it, to make it a good grade. And now in my day and our day, whatever, you didn't have something in time. You didn't have it on time. Now everyone gets extensions and you can do it. And so there is this sense of teaching the victim mindset, and it's like at a societal level, like, no, you can't handle it, so we'll create these accommodations for you. And so it's both from an internal psychological, but also this external societal phenomenon.
Scott Barry Kaufman (15:38):
You're right, there's a sort of how does society reward some of these things?
Dr. Christof Koch (15:43):
How can we help people which expanding their perception board, you're not curious. You're not open to the world.
Scott Barry Kaufman (15:50):
This topic of this book is so related, the perception box, it's such a natural fit. Even the notion of us being in mental, getting ourselves in these mental prisons is a very perception box kind of way of thinking about it. We have to constantly remind ourselves that the door's open metaphorically. We have to constantly remind ourselves there are steps we can take immediately. That added up over time may lead to long-term changes and we'll probably be, or at the very least, we'll make it more likely than not, I have a chapter in the book on Don't be a victim to your emotions. So that's about not identifying with your emotions and taking them so seriously, treating them as facts that because I'm feeling this sensation, I have to immediately jump in and take it seriously that it's something that needs attention immediately.
Dr. Christof Koch (16:42):
So dissociating myself from my emotion that they are two different things.
Scott Barry Kaufman (16:46):
Yeah, the word disassociated as a specific meaning in clinical psychology. So I'm wary of using that word, but I'm not identifying, saying I am not this anxiety feeling that I'm feeling right now. I am feeling something that may be anxiety, but I am more than that. I am a strong mother beeper.
Dr. Heather Berlin (17:07):
And also just because feeling something doesn't make it real. I mean, you're justified in your feeling, but doesn't mean that the thoughts that you have around it are real.
Scott Barry Kaufman (17:17):
Yeah, that's exactly right. My personal story, real quick, in three seconds, I had an auditory learning disability when I was a kid, and they interpreted that as though I was stupid because it took me an extra millisecond to process information. So I was bullied a lot. I was put in special ed, but there was something within me, a fire that was burning where I did not want the crutches and I wanted to be just treated like every other student. I had to fight my way out of special ed. And I was the first one in my school district for the kid to break out of special ed because
Dr. Christof Koch (17:48):
Oh, mean not the parents to meet
Scott Barry Kaufman (17:50):
You. But yeah, it didn't, Dawn doesn't dawn on students. I don't understand what was different about me. Even to today,
Dr. Christof Koch (17:58):
You had a higher sense of agency. You located your locus of control within you rather than your parents or
Scott Barry Kaufman (18:04):
Teachers. But when I have a student in my office saying, Hey, professor, just so you know, I get three times extra time on the test. And I say, have you thought maybe you can handle it? I'm not saying I want to put you in a situation where I'm going to embarrass you or you're going to, but my tests are really easy. And I was wondering, it might give you a sense, you put yourself in a challenging situation to learn more about yourself, to learn more about your limitations, to question it. And they're like, no, it never dawned on me. And no, I get, that's it. I've yet to come across a student who questions the accommodations other people put on them. And I wish there was more of that. I wish more students believed in themselves even more than other
Dr. Christof Koch (18:44):
People. So do they be, when you
Scott Barry Kaufman (18:45):
Challenge them in this way, they can't even think in that term. It's taboo. It's taboo. A question that someone might have higher potential for themselves than they realize they have. And I think that's part of the problem is that we need to shift something in our collective consciousness where we all start to get outside of our comfort zone and see what we're really capable of.
Dr. Christof Koch (19:04):
We need adversity to grow, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman (19:06):
We need adversity to grow. Absolutely. Man, I get riled up about this because it seems so obvious, but I'm like, I don't see that attitude of like, yes, a crappy thing happened to me, whatever, and I got this. And that's, to me, that's what an empowerment mindset is. It's honest love, acknowledging honestly that something happened. We're not wiping it under the fore rug or whatever. And we are also saying, yeah, and I got this and I can move on, and I got resiliency.
Dr. Heather Berlin (19:34):
But I think the problem is also not to blame parents or whatever, but this is a mindset of they're not allowing their children to fail. Parents have to allow their kids to fail. So when I'm doing therapy with a kid who has OCD or neuroticism, whatever, I have them practice, not quite flooding, but we'll do purposely get this one wrong on your homework and we're just going to sit with it and see how you feel with that discomfort and see if you can tolerate it.
Scott Barry Kaufman (19:57):
Awesome.
Dr. Heather Berlin (19:57):
And it's like inoculating them because life is going to throw them curve balls. The curve balls, and there's going to be difficulties If you're in the mindset, if you think I always have to win and I always have to get A's and not everyone gets a's. So inoculating your children and allowing them to fail will give them some resiliency
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:15):
And
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:16):
They don't fall into this victim mindset because then it becomes either I succeed or I'm a victim.
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:20):
That's exactly right.
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:21):
But is there any sort of neural correlates to any of this, or is it related to neuroplasticity or ability to change or different mindset or do you know, is there any research on this?
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:32):
It's interesting. I don't think that a neuroscience explanation always adds extra explanatory value. I'm shocked.
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:41):
I'm going to walk out of this interview, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:43):
It's funny, I have this friend who is obsessed with everything I say. He has to it into neuroscience. He's like, what's the neuro basis of that?
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:50):
And
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:50):
I say, so what?
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:51):
No, I agree. I agree
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:52):
With you. Now, I love neuroscience, don't get me wrong. And I actually started my career studying the neuroscience of intelligence. So I do think there's value in those domains, but when it comes to, I'm not sure what additional value it adds to know that your amygdala was active
Dr. Christof Koch (21:10):
Mechanisms. Once you know the mechanism, you could, if you think about it, intervene, using pharmacology or using brain modulation technology, that's what people want to do, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:21):
Yeah. I think sometimes there's too much of a obsession with technology and fixing your brain. I'm trying to tread very carefully here. I understand how popular bro science is. I'm not a bro. I know, but I understand how pop,
Dr. Heather Berlin (21:37):
What's the opposite of bro,
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:38):
What do you call that? The idea that was,
Dr. Heather Berlin (21:41):
Yeah, I don't know. Is there a name for that?
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:43):
Well, you never heard of this term Below signs. Well, and I want to be respectful. I admire a lot of people in that space. This
Dr. Christof Koch (21:49):
New link, or
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:50):
No, it's just the notion that there's a pill for everything. That there's a protocol for everything, that there's a supplement for everything. That there
Dr. Christof Koch (21:59):
Might be a protocol for everything you can think about a protocol to develop a sense of agency, for instance, right? It may not require a TMS or it may not be ultrasound electrical stimulation, but there may be a mechanistic procedure that if you go undergo it will help you develop more of a sense of agency to be able to say, yes,
Scott Barry Kaufman (22:19):
I'm the captain of the ship. I respect that point of view. But there was a famous philosophical experiment that said, if you could be hooked up to a machine that intravenously gave you a feeling of happiness your entire life, would you want to take that versus having a life that involves suffering? And the large majority of people chose to live a life of suffering, not complete suffering every day, but to not feel that. I think there's something to be said psychologically. Trying things naturally, trying to push yourself out of your comfort zone and really reflecting and understanding who you are. The examined life to me, I think is a beautiful thing.
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:02):
My summary of this is that even if we could discover the neural mechanism, let's say, of victimhood or of, I don't know, a growth mindset, and we can implant electrodes to put us into this positive mindset all of our lives, it might make it less meaningful. Just like everyone gets a trophy. I think
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:19):
It's less meaningful
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:20):
And you don't have a contrast, right? Happiness all the time means nothing if it's not in contrast to something.
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:26):
No, you're right. I think that there are all sorts of different approaches in life, right? There are top down and bottom up approaches. Some would argue, maybe a combination of both are good. Something interesting about the sort of bottom up neuroscientific, like if we use TDSC for instance, I hear you and I get the emerging technologies could potentially, you undergo a C treatment and it completely deactivates. Do you
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:49):
Unpack, say what TDSC
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:51):
Is? It's an electrical current that can temporarily completely deactivate a targeted
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:57):
Portion. So transcranial magnetic stimulation.
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:59):
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So there are some people argue we might have a thinking cap someday where it deactivates your left brain so that you can actually think it more outside the box and we have more insights, things like that, and increase the chances that you'll have a creative insight. Some people are using it for depression. Some people are using, let's say we had A-T-D-S-C protocol that allowed you to shift immediately when you're in a victim mindset and you go, now I'm in an empowerment mindset. Would that be such a bad thing? No, I'm not saying that'd be a horrible thing. However, what, however, what am I grasping at? I'm also a humanistic psychologist, not just a cognitive scientist. I'm also a humanistic psychologist. And there's something that I think I don't want to ever lose, which is the humanity of the journey of self-actualization. There is no protocol for self-actualization. And I think that's what bothers me sometimes when we get so stuck on trying to find the protocol for happiness and realize that there's a great nietzche quote. There are plenty of people who will be happy to walk down the bridge with you, but you, and only you can pull 'em into the depths of your soul. And you have to take responsibility for that self-actualization
Dr. Heather Berlin (25:10):
Insight. So what you're saying is there's no prescription for self-actualization. That's what I'm saying. It's an individual journey.
Scott Barry Kaufman (25:17):
It's an individual journey. It has to be lived. It has to be lived,
Dr. Heather Berlin (25:20):
Which means you have to get some scrapes and bruises along the way,
Dr. Christof Koch (25:23):
But it may also be helped along and nudged along here and hereby by other people. That's by books you read and maybe by psychedelics or by TMS or T, some
Scott Barry Kaufman (25:35):
Other C. Yeah, no, that's for sure. I want to still stay respectful of a lot of people who are doing amazing advances in neuroscience, amazing advances in our under and are even creating protocols and things for helping us be happier. But when it comes to the full self-actualization of a human, I don't want to lose the humanistic aspect of it.
Dr. Heather Berlin (25:55):
So I think the important thing as researchers who have been interested in studying the relationship between the physical brain and the mind, that there is still something about the experience itself, the psychology itself, that we still can't just explain by the underlying mechanisms. That has to be a lived experience. You have to experience life to achieve these levels of self-actualization, and there might not be a formula for
Scott Barry Kaufman (26:19):
That. And not just experience, but also examine
Dr. Heather Berlin (26:23):
Your
Scott Barry Kaufman (26:23):
Experiences. All that is very important. I mean, there's simply different levels of analysis. Understanding why I feel the way I feel based on neuroanatomy and neurochemicals is a level of analysis. But I don't think it's the same exact understanding as understanding why I feel, I feel because of its threat to my existential dreams, desires, and hopes for the future.
Dr. Heather Berlin (26:49):
Those are different levels and different explanations. That's awesome. So we're going to do a little game. We're going to talk about a movie character, and we're going to discuss amongst ourselves whether it's they are a villain or a victim.
Scott Barry Kaufman (26:59):
Amazing.
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:00):
So I'd like to talk about Darth Vader victim or villain. What is your take on
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:05):
That? Victim? Or wait, are those my only two options?
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:08):
Is there a third? What's the third option?
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:10):
The thing about him, which is I think a great example is I think he's a great example of overcoming a victim mindset.
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:17):
What? Okay, explain, dude, you tell the
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:19):
Dude can't breathe. He's not Well,
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:24):
He managed to become an evil emperor despite his,
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:27):
Yes. Now, I am aware that maybe the thing, the agency that he applied to his life may have moral connotations. I understand that, and I acknowledge that. However, I still think, and I think it's also a great example of how you can overcome a victim mindset and necessarily use it for good. You reveal an origin story and you overcome that, and you're like, I'll show the world,
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:52):
And
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:52):
Then you end up not doing great things. But
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:55):
A lot of villains were hurt as
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:58):
Children.
Dr. Christof Koch (27:59):
True. Every single Superman movie, right, always has an origin story where something bad happened and either they became good or they became evil.
Scott Barry Kaufman (28:09):
That's right. But they still both overcame a victim mindset. Wow. Well, that's a good Spiderman, right?
Dr. Heather Berlin (28:15):
They
Scott Barry Kaufman (28:15):
Killed his parents when he was young, or Batman, sorry, Batman. They killed his parents when he was young. And Batman overcame a victim mindset and helped others. I think
Dr. Heather Berlin (28:23):
Spider-Man too, his uncle got killed, and then he became, he said, I think, again, I'm not a huge comic person, but I believe that he could have stopped the robber who ended up killing his uncle, and he didn't. And then after, from that point on, he thought, I have to now protect people and stop these bad things from happening. But it's a really interesting point that you could overcome victimhood and either use it for good or evil. Your newfound,
Scott Barry Kaufman (28:53):
Absolutely. There's evil agency and there's prosocial agency.
Dr. Christof Koch (28:58):
But the important point here for our purposes is agency. You have to develop a sense of agency, otherwise you will always feel, I'm not responsible. It's always says, help with the system that does me.
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:07):
That's correct.
Dr. Christof Koch (29:08):
That's correct.
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:09):
Yes. So you have to take up arms, but how you use them depends on your personality.
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:14):
Yeah, that's true.
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:15):
Every week we ask a perception box question.
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:19):
Amazing.
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:20):
And this week, Christophe picked the question. So you and I don't know what the question is, and we are going to answer it.
Dr. Christof Koch (29:32):
Are you ready?
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:34):
Ready.
Dr. Christof Koch (29:34):
Have you ever gone through something painful or very uncomfortable that you later on reassessed as actually being very politic for you?
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:41):
Yes. So I recently, past couple years, took up magic as a hobby. And in the beginning, I would constantly embarrass myself. I would go out to bars, I would go out to just anywhere I could do, I would set up a beach, Santa Monica beach path. I set up a table. It said, free magic, I'll read your mind. I did. And I just put myself out there to the experience of rejection, and I learned so much from that. And it did hurt in the beginning. I got a lot of rejection, but I'm really glad I did it. I stuck with it, and now I love it.
Dr. Heather Berlin (30:19):
I personally, getting divorced, choosing to get divorced has been a very, and was a very painful thing to have gone through and to go through. But in my case, it was the right decision and I'm glad that I did it. But sometimes things in life are very difficult and you don't realize until after you go through them that you actually grew as a person.
Dr. Christof Koch (30:50):
So you do feel that you did learn something. I mean,
Dr. Heather Berlin (30:53):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I learned that. I actually learned that I am even stronger than I thought I was. I think, yeah, no, I thought maybe I won't be able to, it'll be
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Stressful.
Dr. Heather Berlin (31:07):
It's so difficult for me to get through this. That'll be difficult for me to function and do my job and take care of my kids and do all these things simultaneously. And I wasn't sure that I could do it, but I in some ways surprised myself and I learned that I'm more resilient even though I had gone through these childhood adversities than I thought I was.
Dr. Christof Koch (31:31):
So it's a perfect instantiation that you grow through adversity. What is it the motto of Candace Perra Astra through adversity to the stars. So I guess that's very long PC now.
Dr. Heather Berlin (31:44):
I think we need, the message of this podcast is we're promoting adversity. We're promoting sitting with discomfort. That's where growth happens.
Scott Barry Kaufman (31:54):
That's what it is. It's perceiving the discomfort in a different way than you're used to perceiving it
Dr. Heather Berlin (31:59):
And using it
Scott Barry Kaufman (32:00):
For adversity to
Dr. Christof Koch (32:00):
The stars. I like
Dr. Heather Berlin (32:02):
It. Yeah, I love that. The
Dr. Christof Koch (32:03):
State motto of where I was born. I was born there, as you can hear,
Dr. Heather Berlin (32:08):
In Kansas, of course in Kansas. That makes sense. Scott, thank you very much for joining us.
Scott Barry Kaufman (32:13):
It was such a pleasure to be here.
Dr. Heather Berlin (32:13):
It's been a pleasure. And if you'd like to learn more about your own perception box, spend some time this week answering the same perception box questions that we asked our guest, and check out our other questions on our website@unlikelycollaborators.com. And you can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and watch the show, or listen wherever you get your podcasts. This has been Science of Perception Box created by Unlikely collaborators in partnership with pod people. I'm Dr. Heather Berlin.
Dr. Christof Koch (32:42):
And I'm Dr. Christophe. K. Thank you.
Overcoming the Victim Mindset with Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman
Psychologist Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman explores the difference between victimhood and victim mindset, explaining why learned helplessness is actually our default state—and how developing agency is the key to breaking free. He discusses vulnerable narcissism, the dangers of excessive accommodation, and why growth requires embracing adversity rather than avoiding discomfort. Plus: why Darth Vader is actually an example of overcoming a victim mindset. Dr. Kaufman’s exploration of the victimhood mindset reveals a central idea of the Perception Box, a framework developed by Elizabeth R. Koch for understanding the forces within us that shape how we see ourselves, relate to others, and move through the world.
Scott Barry Kaufman is a psychologist focused on untapped potential and reframing intelligence. He is a professor of psychology at Columbia University and director of the Center for Human Potential. He has written and edited 11 books, with the most recent being Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset. He has written articles for widely respected publications, including The Atlantic, Scientific American, and Harvard Business Review, and he’s also the host of The Psychology Podcast. In addition to teaching at Columbia, he also taught as a professor at NYU and the University of Pennsylvania.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Opening
02:53 Defining the Victim Mindset
03:30 Rumination and Entitlement
05:42 Rethinking Learned Helplessness
08:01 Victimhood vs Victim
09:04 Empowerment Traits
09:44 Genes and Resilience
12:22 Vulnerable Narcissism Link
15:59 Escaping Emotional Victimhood
17:00 Agency Over Accommodations
19:18 Letting Kids Fail
24:56 Villain Or Victim Game
Scott Barry Kaufman (00:00):
Oh man. I get riled up about this because it seems so obvious, but I'm like, I don't see that attitude of like, yes, a crappy thing happened to me, whatever. And I got this.
Elizabeth Koch (00:10):
Hi, I'm Elizabeth Koch. We all live inside our own personal private perception box built by our genes and the physical, social, and cultural environment in which we were born and raised. In this podcast, we explore how, although the walls of this mental box are always present, they can't expand in states like awe, wonder and curiosity or contract in response to anxiety, fear, and anger. I'd like to introduce our esteemed hosts to incredible and distinguished minds. Dr. Heather Berlin, professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City. And Dr. Christophe Koch, chief scientist for the Tiny blue.foundation and the current meritorious investigator and former president of the Allen Institute for Brain Science. Welcome to the Science of Perception Box.
Dr. Heather Berlin (01:16):
Hi everybody. Welcome to Science of Perception Box. I'm your cohost, Dr. Heather Berlin, and
Dr. Christof Koch (01:21):
I'm your other cohost, Dr. Christophe K.
Dr. Heather Berlin (01:24):
Every week we feature an aspect of the science of perception box, highlighting the latest research together with our expert guest. I'm excited to bring on a cognitive scientist whose personal mission is to reframe how we measure intelligence and help people access their untapped potential. Scott Berry Kaufman. Scott Berry Kaufman is a professor of psychology at Columbia University and director of the Center for Human Potential. He has written and edited 11 books with the most recent being Rise Above, overcome a Victim Mindset if you're trying to shed what's held you back in the past. This conversation will give you some ideas on how to move forward. So first we want to open up with our battle with the victim mindset. So Christophe, has there ever been an event in your life where you felt powerless like a victim, and that really affected your outlook on the future?
Dr. Christof Koch (02:17):
Never really as a victim. I mean, as a school kid, I got beaten up at times because I was too much of a teacher's pet.
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:24):
First of all. I'm sorry to hear that. I never knew you were beaten up as a kid.
Dr. Christof Koch (02:28):
Yeah. In fact, at the school, they had to let me out earlier. So my parents talked to the teacher and then they had to let me out earlier so the big kids wouldn't get me.
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:35):
Oh my God. I'm sorry. I didn't know that.
Dr. Christof Koch (02:39):
I haven't talked about it in like 50 years.
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:42):
Wow. But
Dr. Christof Koch (02:43):
I don't think it traumatized me in any way that I can now as adult ascertain. What about you? Have you had times in your life when you felt powerless and as a victim?
Dr. Heather Berlin (02:53):
I had very, the classic Disney, Cinderella story, evil stepmother when I was growing up, and she was pretty cruel to me. And I even had two half siblings who she was very nice to. Scott, welcome to the podcast. How do you define a victim mindset?
Scott Barry Kaufman (03:14):
Oh boy. I define a victim mindset as a dynamic mindset. I get all these emails being like, I loved your book. I perfectly described my ex-boyfriend or whatever, and I'm like, look, this is a book for everyone. So it's a dynamic mindset that we can all get into throughout the course of our day. It can vary. We can be triggered. We can all have our moments. And when we're in this mindset, we blame all the world for our problems. We don't take responsibility for anything we can do. We're helpless, essentially. And the most important part of the victim mindset is we don't move forward with our life, with agency or with productive rumination. In the field of psychology, they distinguish between productive rumination and ana rumination is the technical
Speaker 5 (03:56):
Term
Scott Barry Kaufman (03:56):
For it, which is Yiddish. When you're stuck in OG rumination, you are constantly spinning this wheel over and over again about that one thing that happened to you when you were three, and you forget that you are now in the year 2025, and in the moment there are so many things you can do to realize your higher potential.
Dr. Christof Koch (04:15):
So victim mindset is not just, this is me and my ex, I was a victim. But it's generalized to all sorts of circumstances.
Scott Barry Kaufman (04:22):
It's a broadened, generalized dynamic mindset that applies anywhere you go. Perhaps you are in line at Starbucks and you're like, oh man, I really should be at the front of this line because I've suffered more than everyone in this line. Do
Dr. Christof Koch (04:38):
People think that?
Scott Barry Kaufman (04:39):
I think a lot of people do. Well, this book stemmed from my research on vulnerable narcissism, which is entitlement to special privileges because you've suffered and you think you've suffered the most. But I like to say suffering isn't a competition, and it's a much healthier mindset, which I call the empowerment mindset to think about all the things that you can do to move forward with your life with purpose and a sense of growth.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:05):
Have you ever had a sort of victim mindset in your life? Yeah,
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:09):
For sure. I mean, I'm human too.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:11):
You are?
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:13):
Yeah. Yeah. These things, you're surprised
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:17):
Slightly,
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:18):
But these things are totally seasonal. When things are going well, it's a lot easier to have an empowerment mindset.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:27):
So it's fluid, it's flexible. It's not like you get locked
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:28):
Into. So it's not a personality trait.
Dr. Heather Berlin (05:30):
Yeah,
Scott Barry Kaufman (05:30):
It's both a trait and a state. It's mind. But I, I want to focus not on the trait today. I want to focus on the dynamic mindset that we all can go in, but it also is a trait. Everything is, every psychological thing if we want to really nerd out about it is both a state and a trait. There's individual differences in virtually every psychological trait you can possibly look at, but it's something we definitely can come in and out of at different points of our day and our life when things are not going well. It's our default state. So that was the insight that Martin Seligman and his colleague had recently is that they got their theory completely wrong completely to
Dr. Christof Koch (06:08):
Learn helplessness.
Scott Barry Kaufman (06:10):
Correct. They got their theory of learn helplessness wrong because
Dr. Christof Koch (06:12):
Maybe you can explain that theory.
Scott Barry Kaufman (06:13):
I would be happy to, because they started off shocking. Rats and dogs. Well, dogs. Dogs, really Dogs well
Dr. Christof Koch (06:22):
Extended the rat. They've never been called out on that.
Scott Barry Kaufman (06:23):
Well, we can do that if we want right now. I'm happy to call them out on that. They started their career putting these dogs in cages and keeping the door open a little bit so the dog could leave. And they were curious. The research question is, how many shocks will it take before they don't even attempt to leave anymore? Do they learn helplessness that even if they're free in their mind, they're in their own mental prison? And so that was the research question, and they found that it didn't take that many shocks before this settled in, but then they generalized it to humans
Dr. Christof Koch (07:01):
If they couldn't control it, that was a critical difference because they had these different group. The dogs had somehow control the shock. They did not have this learned helplessness compared to the ones that had no idea what prompted what. Great. The electric shock.
Scott Barry Kaufman (07:16):
Yeah. So feeling, yes, because locus control, you feel like you're not in control of your life story anymore or your future, or I don't know how the life story thing applies to dogs,
Dr. Heather Berlin (07:29):
But so then how did it shift? So this has been in the public ethos for a very long time. So what changed?
Scott Barry Kaufman (07:36):
After enough studies on humans, they realized that their theory was not exactly correct in humans. They found that the default state in humans is helplessness. It's not what humans learn. So what is learned is hopefulness, and that's something that dogs don't have the opportunity to do.
Dr. Heather Berlin (07:54):
But evolutionarily speaking, why would, it doesn't seem like it makes sense on the surface why helplessness would be the default stage.
Dr. Christof Koch (08:02):
Are you seeing the baby is helpless naturally, innately? Well,
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:05):
The mindset is
Dr. Heather Berlin (08:06):
The mindset.
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:07):
Oh, certainly. Yeah. Oh yeah, baby. That's the best example of aless mindset, of helplessness you could possibly give. You're just crying all the time,
Dr. Heather Berlin (08:14):
But they literally are helpless and they need to recruit help. But why would our default state be
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:19):
Helpless? There's something very primal about a helpless state which signals to others and gets us reward. I mean, it's actually pretty rewarding, even especially in the social media climate we live in to signal victimhood. And a lot of, I talk in the book about it's independent, victimhood is independent from a victim mindset. I want to be very clear before I get canceled. Right? There
Dr. Heather Berlin (08:43):
Are actual victims.
Scott Barry Kaufman (08:44):
Totally. There are horrible things that happen to us, and of course we want the utmost of compassion for all that. But these things can actually come apart. You can have been the recipient of a horrible thing in the world and not have a victim mindset. You could not have had anything happen to you and generate a victim mindset. So with the difference in
Dr. Christof Koch (09:03):
People, that person, something bad happens, they think of themselves, a victim, and person B, the same thing happens, but they say, okay, this is bad luck. And they go on, is it genetically, is it the different upbringing? Is it because they locate the locus of control within them that ultimately
Scott Barry Kaufman (09:23):
I'm the actor binging bing. Yeah, that's definitely a big part of it. Part two of the book is kind of looking at what are those characteristics of the opposite. One thing is you see a lot of people who don't fall into this victim mindset. Often they've learned to be lucky people. It's not. They're objectively lucky people. They're more open to luck in their lives. They're more receptive to things all around them. So they don't just focus on the negative in every situation and expect a negative in every situation. Gratefulness is another big part of it. There's not just having gratitude for good things that happen to you, but they can be grateful for the crap that happens to us. They be like, oh, what can I learn from this situation? So that's definitely a big part of it. You said the Jeanette, you brought the dirty word G. The G word. And I'm glad you did
Dr. Christof Koch (10:09):
Dirty. I mean, we all products of our genes in our environment.
Scott Barry Kaufman (10:12):
Oh, totally. But I mean, it is still a dirty word in a lot of circles because in a lot of these kinds of studies, they don't control for genes. And then they make claims about environment like your parents. It's your parents' fault. And it's like, well, it is, and this is the point I'm making in my book. It is to a large degree, it's because your parents gave you their genes. That's why it's their fault.
Dr. Heather Berlin (10:35):
But aren't there genes for resilience? Two people experience the same trauma. One goes on to develop PTSD another. They're finding that there are genetic differences and there's a protective factor
Scott Barry Kaufman (10:45):
For sure. I mean, I don't need to lecture you guys on how everything is nature nurture, and I don't believe in genetic determinism. There are certain dispositions that absolutely color your world and make it more likely that you'll view something as traumatic. You can take the same two people who've raised in the same family and they had the same experiences, and one grows up being like, what a traumatic childhood I had. Mother was always yelling at us. And the other one may have more of a sunny disposition is like, what had a great childhood? And it's like, wait, what? You both had the same experiences?
Dr. Heather Berlin (11:18):
That's the perception box. The perception
Scott Barry Kaufman (11:20):
I Schwarzenegger,
Dr. Heather Berlin (11:22):
I don't know how this relates to No, he grew up
Dr. Christof Koch (11:26):
With a twin or with a younger brother. Oh, that's true. And he had an abusive father, and then he died in a drunk accident.
Dr. Heather Berlin (11:35):
He became an alcoholic. How does this then relate to kind a negative self schema?
Scott Barry Kaufman (11:43):
I'm a personality psychologist as well as creativity, but really I'm really into different sources of personality variation and the trait neuroticism. I don't think we really realized just how pervasive it is across all internalizing disorders. I mean, some people argued it's the trait that it's the central nucleus.
Dr. Christof Koch (12:00):
It's one
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:02):
Of the big five, right? It's one of the big five. Yeah. Oh, I can do a little lecture on the ocean. The Oh, ocean. Ocean, okay. We got openness to experience, which is my favorite. My favorite is openness to experience. I score 99% on that one. And then we have neuroticism, which is literally your brain is wired to constantly feed it. Negative thoughts is basically how we could put it. And emotions, you're just constantly think Woody Allen constantly. You're walking out the say like, oh, oh my God. And it can be funny when you verbalize it out loud, the neurotic mind. It can be kind of funny, but it's not so funny when you're living it. Extroversion, introversion, agreeableness, and then conscientiousness.
Dr. Heather Berlin (12:39):
Well, we didn't go in the order of ocean.
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:41):
Oh, you're reminded
Dr. Heather Berlin (12:41):
Conscientiousness go.
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:43):
Yes.
Dr. Christof Koch (12:43):
So are you implying there's a relationship between the narcissism trait and victim?
Scott Barry Kaufman (12:49):
Yes, but vulnerable narcissism. So there's two different types of narcissism. Everyone thinks narcissism. They conjure up a bravado kind of narcissism, which is like, I'm the best,
(12:59):
But my research has really dived into quieter form and it's neurotic. We can call it also, could we call it neurotic narcissism? There's something very self excessively, self-focused about depression, for instance. Now, when I say that, I'm not at all trying to diminish the real suffering of people who are depressed, but there is something about you, you get stuck in this default mode way of thinking about yourself that you just can't stop ruminating about yourself in a lot of ways and how this is going wrong and that's going wrong and this is going wrong. So it's a unique form of narciss.
Dr. Heather Berlin (13:35):
But are the other types of narcissists ruminating about themselves in a positive
Scott Barry Kaufman (13:40):
Way? Yes, they really are. They're like, they're just obsessed with admiration and accolades,
Dr. Christof Koch (13:46):
So they would not fall into the victim.
Scott Barry Kaufman (13:50):
Well, the tie I wanted to make was between vulnerable narcissism and a victim mindset, we all can, can fall prey to it. It sort of takes a different flavor. It's interesting to think about the different flavors of how these things can manifest these selves. The kind of victim mindset that you see involved in narcissism is a very woe as me type of victim mindset of like, oh, I'm not appreciated enough for my suffering. Whereas the grandiose one is, I'm not appreciated enough because people don't realize how great I am. So it's a little bit of a different flavor.
Dr. Heather Berlin (14:21):
So do you think social media encourages the victim mentality?
Scott Barry Kaufman (14:24):
Well, I had conversation with Jean Twenge about this. She wrote the great book Generations, and I was like, is this current generation a nation of vulnerable narcissists? She's like, yep. She's like, you nailed it. Because prior generations, it really was about grandiose narcissism. But the self-esteem movement in the eighties gave rise, I think, to grandiose narcissism.
Dr. Heather Berlin (14:47):
But I think it's a societal problem because when you think about stuff like the coddling to American mind, the cod mind, this started with safe spaces and trigger warnings and everyone can't handle anything uncomfortable. And then the professors capitulated. And it was also from pressure from parents. Oh, I don't want my kids to have a bad grade. I used to, when I was teaching at Vassar, would have students come, they would hand in the essay before the essay was due so they could find out what they needed to do to change it, to make it a good grade. And now in my day and our day, whatever, you didn't have something in time. You didn't have it on time. Now everyone gets extensions and you can do it. And so there is this sense of teaching the victim mindset, and it's like at a societal level, like, no, you can't handle it, so we'll create these accommodations for you. And so it's both from an internal psychological, but also this external societal phenomenon.
Scott Barry Kaufman (15:38):
You're right, there's a sort of how does society reward some of these things?
Dr. Christof Koch (15:43):
How can we help people which expanding their perception board, you're not curious. You're not open to the world.
Scott Barry Kaufman (15:50):
This topic of this book is so related, the perception box, it's such a natural fit. Even the notion of us being in mental, getting ourselves in these mental prisons is a very perception box kind of way of thinking about it. We have to constantly remind ourselves that the door's open metaphorically. We have to constantly remind ourselves there are steps we can take immediately. That added up over time may lead to long-term changes and we'll probably be, or at the very least, we'll make it more likely than not, I have a chapter in the book on Don't be a victim to your emotions. So that's about not identifying with your emotions and taking them so seriously, treating them as facts that because I'm feeling this sensation, I have to immediately jump in and take it seriously that it's something that needs attention immediately.
Dr. Christof Koch (16:42):
So dissociating myself from my emotion that they are two different things.
Scott Barry Kaufman (16:46):
Yeah, the word disassociated as a specific meaning in clinical psychology. So I'm wary of using that word, but I'm not identifying, saying I am not this anxiety feeling that I'm feeling right now. I am feeling something that may be anxiety, but I am more than that. I am a strong mother beeper.
Dr. Heather Berlin (17:07):
And also just because feeling something doesn't make it real. I mean, you're justified in your feeling, but doesn't mean that the thoughts that you have around it are real.
Scott Barry Kaufman (17:17):
Yeah, that's exactly right. My personal story, real quick, in three seconds, I had an auditory learning disability when I was a kid, and they interpreted that as though I was stupid because it took me an extra millisecond to process information. So I was bullied a lot. I was put in special ed, but there was something within me, a fire that was burning where I did not want the crutches and I wanted to be just treated like every other student. I had to fight my way out of special ed. And I was the first one in my school district for the kid to break out of special ed because
Dr. Christof Koch (17:48):
Oh, mean not the parents to meet
Scott Barry Kaufman (17:50):
You. But yeah, it didn't, Dawn doesn't dawn on students. I don't understand what was different about me. Even to today,
Dr. Christof Koch (17:58):
You had a higher sense of agency. You located your locus of control within you rather than your parents or
Scott Barry Kaufman (18:04):
Teachers. But when I have a student in my office saying, Hey, professor, just so you know, I get three times extra time on the test. And I say, have you thought maybe you can handle it? I'm not saying I want to put you in a situation where I'm going to embarrass you or you're going to, but my tests are really easy. And I was wondering, it might give you a sense, you put yourself in a challenging situation to learn more about yourself, to learn more about your limitations, to question it. And they're like, no, it never dawned on me. And no, I get, that's it. I've yet to come across a student who questions the accommodations other people put on them. And I wish there was more of that. I wish more students believed in themselves even more than other
Dr. Christof Koch (18:44):
People. So do they be, when you
Scott Barry Kaufman (18:45):
Challenge them in this way, they can't even think in that term. It's taboo. It's taboo. A question that someone might have higher potential for themselves than they realize they have. And I think that's part of the problem is that we need to shift something in our collective consciousness where we all start to get outside of our comfort zone and see what we're really capable of.
Dr. Christof Koch (19:04):
We need adversity to grow, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman (19:06):
We need adversity to grow. Absolutely. Man, I get riled up about this because it seems so obvious, but I'm like, I don't see that attitude of like, yes, a crappy thing happened to me, whatever, and I got this. And that's, to me, that's what an empowerment mindset is. It's honest love, acknowledging honestly that something happened. We're not wiping it under the fore rug or whatever. And we are also saying, yeah, and I got this and I can move on, and I got resiliency.
Dr. Heather Berlin (19:34):
But I think the problem is also not to blame parents or whatever, but this is a mindset of they're not allowing their children to fail. Parents have to allow their kids to fail. So when I'm doing therapy with a kid who has OCD or neuroticism, whatever, I have them practice, not quite flooding, but we'll do purposely get this one wrong on your homework and we're just going to sit with it and see how you feel with that discomfort and see if you can tolerate it.
Scott Barry Kaufman (19:57):
Awesome.
Dr. Heather Berlin (19:57):
And it's like inoculating them because life is going to throw them curve balls. The curve balls, and there's going to be difficulties If you're in the mindset, if you think I always have to win and I always have to get A's and not everyone gets a's. So inoculating your children and allowing them to fail will give them some resiliency
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:15):
And
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:16):
They don't fall into this victim mindset because then it becomes either I succeed or I'm a victim.
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:20):
That's exactly right.
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:21):
But is there any sort of neural correlates to any of this, or is it related to neuroplasticity or ability to change or different mindset or do you know, is there any research on this?
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:32):
It's interesting. I don't think that a neuroscience explanation always adds extra explanatory value. I'm shocked.
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:41):
I'm going to walk out of this interview, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:43):
It's funny, I have this friend who is obsessed with everything I say. He has to it into neuroscience. He's like, what's the neuro basis of that?
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:50):
And
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:50):
I say, so what?
Dr. Heather Berlin (20:51):
No, I agree. I agree
Scott Barry Kaufman (20:52):
With you. Now, I love neuroscience, don't get me wrong. And I actually started my career studying the neuroscience of intelligence. So I do think there's value in those domains, but when it comes to, I'm not sure what additional value it adds to know that your amygdala was active
Dr. Christof Koch (21:10):
Mechanisms. Once you know the mechanism, you could, if you think about it, intervene, using pharmacology or using brain modulation technology, that's what people want to do, right?
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:21):
Yeah. I think sometimes there's too much of a obsession with technology and fixing your brain. I'm trying to tread very carefully here. I understand how popular bro science is. I'm not a bro. I know, but I understand how pop,
Dr. Heather Berlin (21:37):
What's the opposite of bro,
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:38):
What do you call that? The idea that was,
Dr. Heather Berlin (21:41):
Yeah, I don't know. Is there a name for that?
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:43):
Well, you never heard of this term Below signs. Well, and I want to be respectful. I admire a lot of people in that space. This
Dr. Christof Koch (21:49):
New link, or
Scott Barry Kaufman (21:50):
No, it's just the notion that there's a pill for everything. That there's a protocol for everything, that there's a supplement for everything. That there
Dr. Christof Koch (21:59):
Might be a protocol for everything you can think about a protocol to develop a sense of agency, for instance, right? It may not require a TMS or it may not be ultrasound electrical stimulation, but there may be a mechanistic procedure that if you go undergo it will help you develop more of a sense of agency to be able to say, yes,
Scott Barry Kaufman (22:19):
I'm the captain of the ship. I respect that point of view. But there was a famous philosophical experiment that said, if you could be hooked up to a machine that intravenously gave you a feeling of happiness your entire life, would you want to take that versus having a life that involves suffering? And the large majority of people chose to live a life of suffering, not complete suffering every day, but to not feel that. I think there's something to be said psychologically. Trying things naturally, trying to push yourself out of your comfort zone and really reflecting and understanding who you are. The examined life to me, I think is a beautiful thing.
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:02):
My summary of this is that even if we could discover the neural mechanism, let's say, of victimhood or of, I don't know, a growth mindset, and we can implant electrodes to put us into this positive mindset all of our lives, it might make it less meaningful. Just like everyone gets a trophy. I think
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:19):
It's less meaningful
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:20):
And you don't have a contrast, right? Happiness all the time means nothing if it's not in contrast to something.
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:26):
No, you're right. I think that there are all sorts of different approaches in life, right? There are top down and bottom up approaches. Some would argue, maybe a combination of both are good. Something interesting about the sort of bottom up neuroscientific, like if we use TDSC for instance, I hear you and I get the emerging technologies could potentially, you undergo a C treatment and it completely deactivates. Do you
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:49):
Unpack, say what TDSC
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:51):
Is? It's an electrical current that can temporarily completely deactivate a targeted
Dr. Heather Berlin (23:57):
Portion. So transcranial magnetic stimulation.
Scott Barry Kaufman (23:59):
That's exactly right. That's exactly right. So there are some people argue we might have a thinking cap someday where it deactivates your left brain so that you can actually think it more outside the box and we have more insights, things like that, and increase the chances that you'll have a creative insight. Some people are using it for depression. Some people are using, let's say we had A-T-D-S-C protocol that allowed you to shift immediately when you're in a victim mindset and you go, now I'm in an empowerment mindset. Would that be such a bad thing? No, I'm not saying that'd be a horrible thing. However, what, however, what am I grasping at? I'm also a humanistic psychologist, not just a cognitive scientist. I'm also a humanistic psychologist. And there's something that I think I don't want to ever lose, which is the humanity of the journey of self-actualization. There is no protocol for self-actualization. And I think that's what bothers me sometimes when we get so stuck on trying to find the protocol for happiness and realize that there's a great nietzche quote. There are plenty of people who will be happy to walk down the bridge with you, but you, and only you can pull 'em into the depths of your soul. And you have to take responsibility for that self-actualization
Dr. Heather Berlin (25:10):
Insight. So what you're saying is there's no prescription for self-actualization. That's what I'm saying. It's an individual journey.
Scott Barry Kaufman (25:17):
It's an individual journey. It has to be lived. It has to be lived,
Dr. Heather Berlin (25:20):
Which means you have to get some scrapes and bruises along the way,
Dr. Christof Koch (25:23):
But it may also be helped along and nudged along here and hereby by other people. That's by books you read and maybe by psychedelics or by TMS or T, some
Scott Barry Kaufman (25:35):
Other C. Yeah, no, that's for sure. I want to still stay respectful of a lot of people who are doing amazing advances in neuroscience, amazing advances in our under and are even creating protocols and things for helping us be happier. But when it comes to the full self-actualization of a human, I don't want to lose the humanistic aspect of it.
Dr. Heather Berlin (25:55):
So I think the important thing as researchers who have been interested in studying the relationship between the physical brain and the mind, that there is still something about the experience itself, the psychology itself, that we still can't just explain by the underlying mechanisms. That has to be a lived experience. You have to experience life to achieve these levels of self-actualization, and there might not be a formula for
Scott Barry Kaufman (26:19):
That. And not just experience, but also examine
Dr. Heather Berlin (26:23):
Your
Scott Barry Kaufman (26:23):
Experiences. All that is very important. I mean, there's simply different levels of analysis. Understanding why I feel the way I feel based on neuroanatomy and neurochemicals is a level of analysis. But I don't think it's the same exact understanding as understanding why I feel, I feel because of its threat to my existential dreams, desires, and hopes for the future.
Dr. Heather Berlin (26:49):
Those are different levels and different explanations. That's awesome. So we're going to do a little game. We're going to talk about a movie character, and we're going to discuss amongst ourselves whether it's they are a villain or a victim.
Scott Barry Kaufman (26:59):
Amazing.
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:00):
So I'd like to talk about Darth Vader victim or villain. What is your take on
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:05):
That? Victim? Or wait, are those my only two options?
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:08):
Is there a third? What's the third option?
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:10):
The thing about him, which is I think a great example is I think he's a great example of overcoming a victim mindset.
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:17):
What? Okay, explain, dude, you tell the
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:19):
Dude can't breathe. He's not Well,
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:24):
He managed to become an evil emperor despite his,
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:27):
Yes. Now, I am aware that maybe the thing, the agency that he applied to his life may have moral connotations. I understand that, and I acknowledge that. However, I still think, and I think it's also a great example of how you can overcome a victim mindset and necessarily use it for good. You reveal an origin story and you overcome that, and you're like, I'll show the world,
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:52):
And
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:52):
Then you end up not doing great things. But
Dr. Heather Berlin (27:55):
A lot of villains were hurt as
Scott Barry Kaufman (27:58):
Children.
Dr. Christof Koch (27:59):
True. Every single Superman movie, right, always has an origin story where something bad happened and either they became good or they became evil.
Scott Barry Kaufman (28:09):
That's right. But they still both overcame a victim mindset. Wow. Well, that's a good Spiderman, right?
Dr. Heather Berlin (28:15):
They
Scott Barry Kaufman (28:15):
Killed his parents when he was young, or Batman, sorry, Batman. They killed his parents when he was young. And Batman overcame a victim mindset and helped others. I think
Dr. Heather Berlin (28:23):
Spider-Man too, his uncle got killed, and then he became, he said, I think, again, I'm not a huge comic person, but I believe that he could have stopped the robber who ended up killing his uncle, and he didn't. And then after, from that point on, he thought, I have to now protect people and stop these bad things from happening. But it's a really interesting point that you could overcome victimhood and either use it for good or evil. Your newfound,
Scott Barry Kaufman (28:53):
Absolutely. There's evil agency and there's prosocial agency.
Dr. Christof Koch (28:58):
But the important point here for our purposes is agency. You have to develop a sense of agency, otherwise you will always feel, I'm not responsible. It's always says, help with the system that does me.
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:07):
That's correct.
Dr. Christof Koch (29:08):
That's correct.
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:09):
Yes. So you have to take up arms, but how you use them depends on your personality.
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:14):
Yeah, that's true.
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:15):
Every week we ask a perception box question.
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:19):
Amazing.
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:20):
And this week, Christophe picked the question. So you and I don't know what the question is, and we are going to answer it.
Dr. Christof Koch (29:32):
Are you ready?
Dr. Heather Berlin (29:34):
Ready.
Dr. Christof Koch (29:34):
Have you ever gone through something painful or very uncomfortable that you later on reassessed as actually being very politic for you?
Scott Barry Kaufman (29:41):
Yes. So I recently, past couple years, took up magic as a hobby. And in the beginning, I would constantly embarrass myself. I would go out to bars, I would go out to just anywhere I could do, I would set up a beach, Santa Monica beach path. I set up a table. It said, free magic, I'll read your mind. I did. And I just put myself out there to the experience of rejection, and I learned so much from that. And it did hurt in the beginning. I got a lot of rejection, but I'm really glad I did it. I stuck with it, and now I love it.
Dr. Heather Berlin (30:19):
I personally, getting divorced, choosing to get divorced has been a very, and was a very painful thing to have gone through and to go through. But in my case, it was the right decision and I'm glad that I did it. But sometimes things in life are very difficult and you don't realize until after you go through them that you actually grew as a person.
Dr. Christof Koch (30:50):
So you do feel that you did learn something. I mean,
Dr. Heather Berlin (30:53):
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I learned that. I actually learned that I am even stronger than I thought I was. I think, yeah, no, I thought maybe I won't be able to, it'll be
Speaker 5 (31:06):
Stressful.
Dr. Heather Berlin (31:07):
It's so difficult for me to get through this. That'll be difficult for me to function and do my job and take care of my kids and do all these things simultaneously. And I wasn't sure that I could do it, but I in some ways surprised myself and I learned that I'm more resilient even though I had gone through these childhood adversities than I thought I was.
Dr. Christof Koch (31:31):
So it's a perfect instantiation that you grow through adversity. What is it the motto of Candace Perra Astra through adversity to the stars. So I guess that's very long PC now.
Dr. Heather Berlin (31:44):
I think we need, the message of this podcast is we're promoting adversity. We're promoting sitting with discomfort. That's where growth happens.
Scott Barry Kaufman (31:54):
That's what it is. It's perceiving the discomfort in a different way than you're used to perceiving it
Dr. Heather Berlin (31:59):
And using it
Scott Barry Kaufman (32:00):
For adversity to
Dr. Christof Koch (32:00):
The stars. I like
Dr. Heather Berlin (32:02):
It. Yeah, I love that. The
Dr. Christof Koch (32:03):
State motto of where I was born. I was born there, as you can hear,
Dr. Heather Berlin (32:08):
In Kansas, of course in Kansas. That makes sense. Scott, thank you very much for joining us.
Scott Barry Kaufman (32:13):
It was such a pleasure to be here.
Dr. Heather Berlin (32:13):
It's been a pleasure. And if you'd like to learn more about your own perception box, spend some time this week answering the same perception box questions that we asked our guest, and check out our other questions on our website@unlikelycollaborators.com. And you can also subscribe to our YouTube channel and watch the show, or listen wherever you get your podcasts. This has been Science of Perception Box created by Unlikely collaborators in partnership with pod people. I'm Dr. Heather Berlin.
Dr. Christof Koch (32:42):
And I'm Dr. Christophe. K. Thank you.
Psychologist Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman explores the difference between victimhood and victim mindset, explaining why learned helplessness is actually our default state—and how developing agency is the key to breaking free. He discusses vulnerable narcissism, the dangers of excessive accommodation, and why growth requires embracing adversity rather than avoiding discomfort. Plus: why Darth Vader is actually an example of overcoming a victim mindset. Dr. Kaufman’s exploration of the victimhood mindset reveals a central idea of the Perception Box, a framework developed by Elizabeth R. Koch for understanding the forces within us that shape how we see ourselves, relate to others, and move through the world.
Scott Barry Kaufman is a psychologist focused on untapped potential and reframing intelligence. He is a professor of psychology at Columbia University and director of the Center for Human Potential. He has written and edited 11 books, with the most recent being Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset. He has written articles for widely respected publications, including The Atlantic, Scientific American, and Harvard Business Review, and he’s also the host of The Psychology Podcast. In addition to teaching at Columbia, he also taught as a professor at NYU and the University of Pennsylvania.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
Episode Chapters:
00:00 Opening
02:53 Defining the Victim Mindset
03:30 Rumination and Entitlement
05:42 Rethinking Learned Helplessness
08:01 Victimhood vs Victim
09:04 Empowerment Traits
09:44 Genes and Resilience
12:22 Vulnerable Narcissism Link
15:59 Escaping Emotional Victimhood
17:00 Agency Over Accommodations
19:18 Letting Kids Fail
24:56 Villain Or Victim Game
Your body already holds the tools necessary for peak mental and physical performance – you just need to unlock them. Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch sit down with Stanford neuroscientist and “Huberman Lab” host Andrew Huberman to explore the science of how your brain and body talk to each other, and how you can use that conversation to your advantage. Huberman shares his evidence-based solutions for optimizing brain function, mood, energy, and physical performance in order to learn new skills and behaviors that can transform your life. Huberman’s exploration of the brain-body connection speaks to a central idea of the Perception Box, a framework developed by Elizabeth R. Koch for understanding the forces within us that shape how we see ourselves, relate to others, and move through the world.
Andrew Huberman is a Professor of Neurobiology and Ophthalmology at Stanford University School of Medicine and host of the “Huberman Lab” podcast. His newest book, Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body publishes in September 2026 and culminates years of research, lab work, and conversations with scientists.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes of Science of Perception Box every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Love Science of Perception Box? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend!
Chapters:
00:00 Opening
06:33 Yoga Nidra and Tactical Breathing
09:25 What Helps Addiction
14:18 Physiological Sigh
17:37 Naming Shapes Adoption
23:05 Alcohol Health Consensus
26:20 Gut Microbiome and Nutrition
27:42 Sex and Wellbeing
30:56 Sleep, Aging and Melatonin
32:42 Protocols Book Overview
35:18 Letting Go and Faith
37:56 Psychedelics
39:44 Perception Box Questions

In a world shaped by dating apps, endless choices, and constant digital interaction, many people feel more disconnected and uncertain about relationships than ever before. In this Spark Salon, Marisa T. Cohen explores the hidden emotional patterns shaping modern love, from attachment and vulnerability to rejection, perception, and communication. Blending relationship science with real-world insight, she examines how our past experiences, assumptions, and unconscious beliefs influence how we seek, interpret, and experience connection.
Drawing from psychology, clinical practice, and years of research on relationships, Dr. Cohen explores what it means to date more intentionally in an age of constant swiping and digital noise. From communication and emotional availability to the stories we carry about love and rejection, she offers a thoughtful framework for building relationships that feel more grounded, mutual, and meaningful.
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How much of your energy is focused on trying to change people who aren't ready to change? Best-selling author and podcast host Mel Robbins joins Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch to explore what happens when you stop trying to control others and start reclaiming your own life. Robbins calls it the “Let Them Theory”: a deceptively simple idea that has struck a nerve with millions worldwide who are using it to address frustration, anxiety, their need for control, and more.
Mel’s “Let Them Theory” touches on a central idea of the Perception Box, a framework developed by Elizabeth R. Koch for understanding the forces within us that shape how we see ourselves, relate to others, and move through the world.
Mel Robbins is a #1 New York Times bestselling author and host of the award-winning “Mel Robbins Podcast”, with more than 40 million followers worldwide. Her book The Let Them Theory was the top-selling nonfiction title of 2025, selling seven million copies in nine months.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes of Science of Perception Box every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Love Science of Perception Box? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend!
Visit unlikelycollaborators.com for more information.
Chapters:
05:09 Introducing Mel Robbins
06:43 Parents And Instinct to Rescue
12:32 Helping Without Pushback
14:27 Annoying Spouse Habits
19:00 “Let Them, Let Me” Boundaries
21:03 Losing Control In Modern Life
26:01 The Cold Tea Test
27:12 Flow State Reset
28:51 Why Let Them Works
31:48 Let Them Let Me Boundaries
33:28 Radical Acceptance in Relationships
37:17 Perception Box Reflections
40:24 People Pleasing as Control
43:01 Let Them or Step In Game
Dr. Camilo Ortiz, clinical psychologist and creator of Independence Therapy, joins hosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch to unpack why the instinct in modern parenting is to protect kids from every risk may be backfiring. Dr. Ortiz explains how a child's Perception BoxTM starts forming almost as soon as they can speak, why parents today wildly overestimate danger despite living in the safest era on record, and how everyday tasks such as chopping vegetables, walking to the store alone can rebuild kids' confidence and resilience.
Dr. Camilo Ortiz is board-certified in behavioral and cognitive therapy. He holds an MS and PhD in Clinical Psychology from the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and serves as a tenured associate psychology professor at Long Island University, bringing 20 years of clinical experience to his role.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Chapters:
06:39 Independence With Guardrails
13:03 Freedom Versus Neglect
16:26 Getting Lost Builds Confidence
18:55 “When Then” Parenting
23:52 Why Parents Overprotect
28:27 Independence Therapy Basics
31:01 When Freedom Backfires
42:07 Independence Or Interference
Join us for new episodes of Science of Perception Box every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Love Science of Perception Box? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend!
Visit unlikelycollaborators.com for more information.
Why do two people witness the same event and walk away with entirely different experiences of what happened? Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch return for Season 2 of Science of Perception Box, exploring the invisible framework, the Perception Box™, that shapes how your brain constructs reality, interprets experience, and defines your sense of self. Each week, they sit down with guests including Mel Robbins, Andrew Huberman and Sam Harris to unpack how perception is built, and how you can gain more agency over your own. New episodes weekly.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes of Science of Perception Box every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Love Science of Perception Box? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend. You can even do both!

Chris Gardner refused to let the circumstances of his childhood define the limits of his future.
In this episode of Corner Office, created in partnership with The Wall Street Journal Custom Content and Unlikely Collaborators, Gardner explores how questioning the beliefs shaped by poverty, violence, and rejection helped him transform hardship into possibility and inspired his lifelong mission to create opportunity for others.
BJ Miller, MD, Katherine Shear, MD, and Paul Bloom, PhD reframe grief as a natural, necessary response to love and loss — instead of a disorder to fix on a deadline. Drawing from neuroscience, psychiatry, and philosophy, they explain why grief can resemble love in the brain, why mourning often takes months or years, and how modern culture makes loss harder by rushing people toward “normal” before they’ve had time to change.
Science can explain how we think, connect, and perceive reality. But it also invites us into something deeper: awe, wonder, and a greater understanding of what it means to be human.
Neuroscientist and physician Andrew Newberg, psychiatrist and happiness researcher Robert Waldinger, and theoretical physicist Jim Al-Khalili explore the intersections of science, consciousness, meaning, and human flourishing—revealing how discovery itself can become a path to enlightenment and awe.

What do you do when you don’t feel loved?
In a world where we are more connected than ever, many people still feel unseen, misunderstood, or alone. The issue is not always about how much love we have in our lives, but how we experience it.
In this Spark Salon, renowned psychologist and best-selling author Sonja Lyubomirsky explores how our internal lens shapes the way we give, receive, and interpret love. Drawing from her book How to Feel Loved, she challenges the instinct to earn love by presenting our best selves, and instead points to the power of authenticity, including our imperfections and vulnerabilities.
This session explores how the way we show up in our relationships, what we express, what we hold back, and how we respond to others shapes whether love is actually felt on both sides. How do small shifts in how we communicate and engage change whether someone feels seen, valued, and understood? And how, in turn, does that transform our own experience of being loved?
Blending research from well-being and relationship science, Lyubomirsky introduces a set of core relational mindsets that can shift how we experience connection in everyday life, helping close the gap between being loved and actually feeling it.

What does it really mean when you feel lonely? The answer depends on your perception.
In this video, Robert Waldinger, MD, Kasley Killam, MPH, and Ethan Kross, PhD explore why loneliness has become so common and how it affects both the mind and the body. They explain why friendships are disappearing, how loneliness changes our health, and why being alone doesn’t always have to be a bad thing. Instead of treating loneliness as a personal failure, they suggest seeing it as a signal that helps us understand what we need and how to reconnect.
What if the voice in your head is less of a witness and more of an interpreter? Two neuroscientists discuss the brain’s drive to explain, narrate, and make everything add up.
Stories do not just entertain us; they may be one of the main ways our brains rehearse experience, assign meaning, and turn scattered moments into something that feels like a self. We are constantly sorting actions, memories and emotion into a version of events that feels coherent enough to live inside. Neuroscientists Michael Gazzaniga, PhD and Dean Buonomano, PhD draw on split-brain research to explain the left hemisphere’s “Interpreter”: the brain’s tendency to create explanations for behavior, even when it does not have the full picture. The instinct to create narratives likely shapes far more than self-understanding. It may underpin identity, belief, and the desire to belong in the world.
The brain isn't separate from the body. It depends on it. Three scientists explain the biology behind one of science's most under-explored relationships.
Your brain didn't evolve in isolation. It evolved to run the economy of your body, and every heartbeat, breath, and moment of thirst or anxiety is evidence of that system at work.
Neuroscientist and author Aditi Nerurkar, neuroscientist Wendy Suzuki, and neurologist-philosopher Antonio Damasio break down the science of the mind-body connection: why it exists, how it works, and why understanding it can change the way you experience the world.
Every time you move your body, your brain gets what one neuroscientist calls a “bubble bath” of dopamine, serotonin, and growth factors. Here’s how to activate it.
Neuroscientists Wendy Suzuki, PhD, Samuel Wang, PhD, and Gary Small, MD explain how movement increases blood flow, boosts growth factors like BDNF, and floods the brain with mood-lifting neurochemicals. The brain and body are in constant conversation, and plasticity means your wiring is never fixed. According to Suzuki, even ten minutes of walking can shift your brain’s chemistry immediately, flooding it in a ‘bubble bath’ of positive neurochemicals.
In other words, the way you use your body today shapes how your brain works tomorrow.
Bad news: your sense of self is made up. The good news is, you’re able to change it. Neuroscience and psychology explain.
Perception feels stable. Your sense of self feels solid. Yet neuroscientist Heather Berlin, psychologist Ethan Kross and neuroscientist Nicole Vignola explain that both are created by the brain. Through prediction, memory and neural pruning, the mind builds a narrative that feels coherent and fixed, even though modern science suggests that it’s continually shaped by pre-existing beliefs and experience. Seeing the construction clearly is the first step toward altering it.
Have you ever woken up after a dream and thought to yourself, “That made absolutely no sense”? According to modern neuroscience, there’s a reason why dreams feel so abstract and bizarre. Two sleep experts discuss.
Every 90 minutes, our bodies go paralyzed while our brains become more active than during waking life. Sleep psychologist Dr. Shelby Harris and neuroscientist Dr. Patrick McNamara, Associate Professor of Neurology at Boston University, dig into one of the most fascinating mysteries in human biology: why we dream and what our brains are actually doing during REM sleep. They explore competing theories of what dreaming is for, McNamara makes a compelling case that REM sleep may have been a key driver of early human creativity, and both reflect on why reclaiming our reverence for the dream state could change the way we think and create.
Happiness researchers Robert Waldinger MD, Tal Ben-Shahar PhD, and Peter Baumann explain why the happiest people aren’t happy all the time.
Psychiatrist Robert Waldinger, MD, psychologist Tal Ben-Shahar, PhD, and author-entrepreneur Peter Baumann share what 85 years of research and lived experience reveal about happiness. They explain why chasing it directly often backfires—and how strong relationships, mindfulness, and embracing every emotion can build a baseline of positivity that actually lasts.
Humans have always had religion. What does this say about our minds? Reza Aslan, PhD, Lisa Miller, PhD, and Rob Bell, MDiv, explain.
Why has religion been part of humanity since the beginning? Religious scholar Reza Aslan, PhD, clinical psychologist Lisa Miller, PhD, and former pastor Rob Bell, MDiv, explore innate spiritual instincts, the neuroscience of belief, and how faith and science both seek truth. They discuss substance dualism, religion’s role in resilience and mental health, and why our brains may be wired to find meaning, connection, and a sense of something greater.
About Reza Aslan, PhD:
Reza Aslan is a religious scholar, writer, and professor. Author of Zealot, he explores faith, identity, and culture, bringing religious history into contemporary conversations.
About Lisa Miller, PhD:
Lisa Miller is a clinical psychologist and Columbia University professor. She researches spirituality and mental health, authoring The Spiritual Child and The Awakened Brain on the science of faith.
About Rob Bell, MDiv:
Rob Bell is an author, teacher, and former pastor known for Love Wins. He explores spirituality, creativity, and the intersection of faith and modern life.
People make decisions about your confidence before you ever speak. Authors Robert Greene and Daniel Shapiro explain how posture, presence, and even silence communicate more than words ever could.
Oftentimes, our most effective form of communication happens before we even open our mouths. Best-selling author Robert Greene and conflict negotiation expert Daniel Shapiro reveal how body language silently shapes our identity, influence, and power. From nonverbal dominance to mastering conflict, they break down why we lose arguments and explain how to win them without conflict. By mastering these subtle signals, anyone can master their own influence and create deeper trust, stronger presence, and lasting impact without ever saying a word.
Your brain makes habits stick. The good news? The same science shows how to replace the bad ones.
Why are bad habits so hard to break?
Neuroscientist Carl Hart, PhD, journalist Charles Duhigg, and psychologist Adam Alter, PhD explain how your brain wires habits as cue-routine-reward loops that control nearly half of your daily life. They show why willpower alone rarely works, why technology fuels new forms of addiction, and why habits can only be replaced, not erased.
About Carl Hart, PhD:
Dr. Hart is an Associate Professor of Psychology in both the Departments of Psychiatry and Psychology at Columbia University, and Director of the Residential Studies and Methamphetamine Research Laboratories at the New York State Psychiatric Institute. A major focus of Dr. Hart’s research is to understand complex interactions between drugs of abuse and the neurobiology and environmental factors that mediate human behavior and physiology.
About Charles Duhigg:
Charles Duhigg is a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and the author of The Power of Habit, which spent over three years on bestseller lists and has been translated into 40 languages, and Smarter Faster Better, also a bestseller. Mr. Duhigg writes for The New Yorker magazine and is a graduate of Yale University and the Harvard Business School. He has been a frequent contributor to CNBC, This American Life, NPR, The Colbert Report, NewsHour, and Frontline.
About Adam Alter, PhD:
Adam Alter is an Associate Professor of Marketing at New York University’s Stern School of Business, with an affiliated appointment in the New York University Psychology Department.
Failure is inevitable, but your response to it is a choice – and it makes all the difference.
Journalist Tim Harford, PhD, psychologist Tal Ben-Shahar, and organizational behavior expert Robert Sutton, PhD, reveal how failure can become the foundation of success when it's examined and built upon. Reframing failure as information, rather than a personal setback, is what sets productive thinkers apart.
Our memories aren’t perfect records of the past — they’re reconstructions shaped by brain activity.
Neuroscientists Lisa Genova and André Fenton explain that a memory is created through neural patterns that can subtly shift each time we recall it. We may unknowingly add or lose details over time. Understanding this science helps us approach memory with more humility and empathy, and deepens our insight into how memories shape one’s identity and beliefs.
What happens when the boundaries of “you” disappear?
James Fadiman, PhD, Jamie Wheal, and Matthew Johnson, PhD explore how supported experiences with psychoactive drugs can dissolve identity and reveal a deeper reality.
What if one experience could make you lose your sense of self, forget time, and feel deeply connected to everything around you?
Experts Jamie Wheal, Matthew Johnson, PhD., and James Fadiman, PhD. give us a deeper look at psychedelic medicine, exploring how substances like psilocybin, LSD, and ayahuasca change the way we see ourselves and the world. Used carefully, they can bring insight and unity. However, without support, they can be overwhelming and reveal just how fragile our sense of reality can be. These researchers explain the difference.
About Matthew Johnson, PhD:
Matthew W. Johnson, PhD, is The Susan Hill Ward Endowed Professor of Psychedelics and Consciousness Research at Johns Hopkins. Working with psychedelics since 2004, he is one of the world’s most widely published experts on psychedelics. He has published research on psychedelics and mystical experience, personality change, tobacco smoking cessation, cancer distress treatment, and depression treatment.
About James Fadiman PhD:
Dr. James Fadiman is a leading scientific expert on the use of psychedelics for personal exploration, healing, and transformation. He has been researching, writing and lecturing on the topic for more than fifty years. His research focuses on exploring the potential of psychedelics to help individuals achieve a more meaningful, balanced and enlightened life.
About Jamie Wheal:
Jamie Wheal is the author of the global best-seller and Pulitzer Prize-nominated Stealing Fire: How Silicon Valley, Navy SEALs and Maverick Scientists are Revolutionizing the Way We Live and Work and the founder of the Flow Genome Project, an international organization dedicated to the research and training of ultimate human performance. Since founding the organization in 2011, it has gone on to become the leading voice of evidence-based peak performance in the world, counting award-winning academics, legendary professional athletes, special operations commanders, and Fortune 500 business leaders among the hundreds of thousands of people in its global community.

Around the world, small communities are preserving extraordinary skills and forms of knowledge that have endured for centuries, from rare crafts to rituals that require years of apprenticeship to master. These traditions are not simply artifacts of the past. They are living bodies of knowledge, sustained through discipline, memory, and care.In this Spark Salon, BBC journalist and author Eliot Stein shares stories from his search for the last keepers of remarkable traditions. Through immersive reporting and personal encounters, he explores what it takes to carry specialized knowledge across generations and what is lost when those skills disappear.As modern life accelerates and expertise becomes increasingly digital and disposable, Stein invites us to reflect on the value of embodied knowledge, apprenticeship, and continuity. What does it mean to inherit a skill? What responsibility comes with preserving it? And how do forms of knowledge shape the communities that sustain them?
A neuroscientist, a psychologist, and a psychotherapist discuss how emotions are stories built from old experiences.
By introducing new ones, you can shift the way your past shapes you.
Neuroscientist Lisa Feldman Barrett, PhD, psychologist Paul Eckman, PhD, and psychotherapist Esther Perel, PhD, explain how the brain constantly rebuilds emotions from memory and prediction. According to their research, by choosing new experiences today, we can reshape how our past influences us, gain more control over our feelings, and create new possibilities for connection and growth.
About Lisa Feldman Barrett, PhD:
Lisa Feldman Barrett is University Distinguished Professor of Psychology at Northeastern University, with appointments at Massachusetts General Hospital and Harvard Medical School. She directs the Interdisciplinary Affective Science Laboratory, where she researches the nature of emotion and the brain’s predictive processes.
About Esther Perel, PhD:
Esther Perel is a psychotherapist and author recognized worldwide for her work on modern relationships. Perel is also a sought-after public speaker with TED Talks reaching millions, and consults globally with organizations on relational intelligence.
About Paul Ekman, PhD:
Paul Ekman is professor emeritus of psychology at the University of California, San Francisco, and a leading authority on emotion and nonverbal communication. He pioneered research on microexpressions and developed the Facial Action Coding System (FACS), used widely in psychology, law enforcement, and security.

Krista Tippett has spent decades convening conversations at the intersection of spirituality, science, and the human condition. Through her work On Being, she has asked some of the most searching questions of our time: What does it mean to be human? How do we live wisely with one another across differences? What kind of inner life makes a different outer world possible?
In this Spark Salon, Krista reflects on the discipline of listening, not as politeness but as transformation. She explores how the stories we inherit, the assumptions we carry, and the meaning we make of our experiences quietly shape how we see ourselves and one another.
This conversation is not about quick fixes. It is an invitation to slow down, to widen our moral imagination, and to examine the interior patterns that shape how we show up in a fractured world. When we shift the way we listen to ourselves and to others . . . something larger becomes possible.

For most of human history, that question lived in myth and imagination. Today, it lives in scientific inquiry.
In this Spark Salon, astrophysicist and astrobiologist Dr. Lisa Kaltenegger, Founding Director of the Carl Sagan Institute and author of Alien Earths, takes us into the search for worlds beyond our own. As scientists explore distant planets orbiting other stars, they are not just gathering data; they are interpreting it.
What counts as life?
What makes a world “habitable”?
How do we recognize something we’ve never seen before?
The search for life beyond Earth is ultimately a search for meaning. It forces us to examine the assumptions we carry about what is normal, possible, and real.
As our view of the cosmos expands, so does our perspective on ourselves. Looking outward into the vastness of space, we may discover something equally profound about how we construct our understanding of life here at home.

📣 Unlikely Collaborators GAME JAM Theme Announcement:
Make AWE playable:
Consciousness and Identity through Awe and Wonder
Build mechanics that create wonder.
Design systems that move identity.
Create moments where perception changes in real time.
🏆 $10,000 in prizes
📅 March 21 – April 7, 2026🔗 igdafoundation.org/gamejam
Sponsored by Unlikely Collaborators in collaboration with IGDA Foundation, Girls Make Games, and International Game Developers Association (IGDA®).

Sleep influences far more than how rested we feel. It shapes how we regulate emotion, connect with others, generate new ideas, and grow from our experiences. But even those who appreciate its importance and want to prioritize rest often find themselves struggling to reach their ideal sleep. Even gadgets, supplements, and sleep hygiene don’t seem to help in the face of life’s changes and challenges.
In this Spark Salon, board-certified sleep psychologist and author Dr. Jade Wu explores a new way to approach sleep that is intuitive and resilient—treating sleep as a relationship to nurture rather than an engineering problem to hack.
Drawing from neuroscience, clinical practice, and her work with high-performing professionals, she helps us understand how working with, instead of against, our unique sleep physiology is the foundation of steadier moods, clearer thinking, and recovery from challenge. This talk offers a grounded, humane perspective on sleep, one that moves beyond rigid rules or quick fixes and instead focuses on the malleable tools we can use to build a healthier, more sustainable relationship with rest.

We are surrounded by bold claims about the future—what’s coming next, what’s inevitable, what we should prepare for. But what if the most important work isn’t predicting what’s ahead but understanding how we relate to it in the first place?
In this Spark Salon, futures designer and author Nick Foster invites us to turn our attention inward. Drawing from his new book, Could Should Might Don’t, Nick helps us notice the stories we carry about the future—and the quiet assumptions, habits, and mental shortcuts that shape our sense of fear, urgency, agency, and possibility. Rather than offering forecasts or frameworks, he offers something more radical: a way to see the future as an extension of the present, shaped by human choices, values, and imagination.
Nick equips audiences to become more discerning thinkers about the future—less reactive, less dazzled by hype, and more grounded in choice and care. Through sharp provocation and real-world examples, the talk brings structure to imagination and expands perspective, helping people navigate uncertainty with greater confidence.

Yum! Brands co-founder David Novak reflects on a lifetime of movement, ambition, and leadership at the highest level. From a nomadic childhood to building some of the world’s most iconic restaurant brands, Novak shares how slowing down, listening more closely, and reexamining his assumptions ultimately reshaped his definition of success and meaning.

Good anxiety isn’t the enemy. Good anxiety is actually your built-in superpower for focus, creativity, and connection when you learn how to harness it. In this Spark Salon, renowned neuroscientist, author, and NYU Dean Dr. Wendy Suzuki invites us to rethink our entire relationship with stress by revealing the remarkable science behind this often misunderstood emotion. Rather than something to avoid, control, or suppress, anxiety becomes a source of energy and insight when we understand the deeper purpose of our brain’s stress responses.
Drawing from her book Good Anxiety: Harnessing the Power of the Most Misunderstood Emotion, Dr. Suzuki shows us how to turn everyday stress into fuel for a stronger, more resilient, beautifully adaptive brain. By learning simple, science-backed strategies to support our brain’s natural responses, we can shift from feeling overwhelmed to feeling equipped. Ultimately, she demonstrates that anxiety isn’t something we simply have to endure. Rather, it’s something we can learn from, shape, and use to live a fuller, more grounded, and more empowered life.

In this provocative Spark Salon, neuroscientist and best-selling author Lisa Feldman Barrett, PhD, invites us to rethink everything we believe about perception, emotion, and reality itself. Drawing on groundbreaking neuroscience, she reveals that we don’t perceive reality in a more or less objective way., Reality exists only in relation to us. Every sound, color, and feeling is an act of construction by the brain, shaped by culture, context, and memory. Through vivid examples, from a falling tree to a racing heart, Dr. Barrett shows that signals from the world and body have no inherent meaning until the brain processes them. What we experience as reality is a story our brains are constantly writing. Ultimately, she challenges us to recognize that we are not spectators of reality but its architects, with the power to expand our agency, reshape meaning, and reimagine what it means to be fully human.

Grief transforms how we see the world, shaping identity, meaning, and connection in profound ways for all of us, especially for children and teens. In this Spark Salon, Brennan Wood, Executive Director of Dougy Center, and Dr. Donna Schuurman, Senior Director of Advocacy & Education and Executive Director Emeritus, invite us into the often-invisible narratives of kids who are grieving: how they make sense of loss, what they internalize, and the stories they carry forward. Together, they will explore the power of witnessing grief, in ourselves and others, without trying to fix it—how presence itself can be healing, and what it means to be truly “grief-informed.” Drawing from personal experience and decades of leadership in the field, Brennan and Donna will share practical reflections and hard-earned wisdom on how grief, when named and honored, can expand our understanding of resilience, empathy, and the human experience.

Neuroscientist and consciousness researcher Nicco Reggente, PhD, will explore the fascinating, science-backed connection between the heart and the brain in this mind-expanding Spark Salon. Drawing from the groundbreaking, soon-to-be-published study Heartbeat-Evoked Potentials as a Neural Marker of Meditative Depth, Nicco will unpack the ancient wisdom behind “listening to your heart” and what it actually means in modern neuroscience. You’ll discover how the body’s subtle signals, like your heartbeat, shape consciousness, mindfulness, and emotional regulation. Through the lens of interoception (our ability to sense internal bodily states), this session reveals how tuning in to the sensations of the body can help us respond more thoughtfully to life rather than react impulsively.

Nutrition therapist and author Kim Shapira, MS, RD, shares her transformative Six Simple Rules to Become Your Healthiest Self, based on her acclaimed book This Is What You're Really Hungry For. In this engaging session, Kim will introduce key principles from her Six Rules, guiding participants to reframe their relationship with food through science-backed strategies, self-awareness, and sustainable habits. Kim’s empowering and practical approach moves beyond restrictive diets, helping participants reconnect with their bodies, manage emotions in healthier ways, and build lasting behaviors that support physical and emotional well-being.

Join renowned psychologist and author Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman for a powerful Spark Salon exploring themes from his latest book, Rise Above: Overcome a Victim Mindset, Empower Yourself, and Realize Your Full Potential. In this engaging session, Dr. Kaufman challenges the limiting beliefs and cultural narratives that keep us feeling stuck, offering fresh insight into how we can move beyond a victim mindset to reclaim our agency and become the heroes of our own lives. Drawing on cutting-edge psychology and grounded in empathy and humor, he reveals how to harness emotional intelligence, reframe past experiences, and unlock the resilience and potential within each of us.

In this session, digital workplace expert and author Alexandra Samuel, PhD, explores how AI sycophancy is changing the stories we tell about ourselves and how those stories shape our work, relationships, and well-being. Drawing from her podcast, Me+Viv, and forthcoming book, she shares insights on the intersection of AI and the new workplace, including the hidden tools that can help surface new perspectives, challenge assumptions, and navigate the risks and possibilities of emerging technology.

In a world increasingly marked by isolation and division, artist and urban designer Candy Chang offers a powerful counterpoint: We can still design spaces—physical, emotional, and communal—that foster connection, reflection, and belonging. Best known for her global Before I Die project, Chang has transformed walls, museums, neighborhoods, and even casinos into places of shared vulnerability, creativity, and hope. In this deeply moving and visually rich session, she explores how art can help us process grief, spark dialogue, and bridge the spaces between us. Drawing on a career of participatory installations across more than 70 countries, Candy shows us how to leverage the power of creativity and community to design lives, and environments, where people feel seen, supported, and at home.

Renowned mythologist and story expert John Bucher explores the extraordinary power of story as a force for transformation. Drawing from ancient myths and modern movements, John will reveal how stories have historically reshaped cultural norms, shifted collective behavior, and expanded what people believed was possible. Through compelling examples, John will illuminate how stories can be tools for liberation or limitation, depending on how they shape our internal narrative frameworks. This session will inspire participants to examine the stories they live by and consider how re-authoring those narratives can lead to personal growth, deeper empathy, and even social change.

In this energizing session, Ellen Bennett, founder of Hedley & Bennett and author of Dream First, Details Later, shares the unfiltered truth about fear, failure, and forging your own path. With no safety net and no investors, Ellen built her company from scratch by embracing action over perfection, reframing setbacks as fuel, and turning limited resources into powerful assets. A bold, personal take on pushing through fear, self-doubt, and imposter syndrome, this talk is a powerful reminder that self-belief, persistence, and momentum matter more than credentials or ideal circumstances, and, importantly, that we each have the power to drive our own story forward.

In this mind-expanding Spark Salon, storyteller, illusionist, and entrepreneur Harris III draws from his forthcoming book Start with Wow to explore a powerful shift: the transition from the Information Age to the Imagination Age. Blending magic, neuroscience, and storytelling, Harris makes the case that the future belongs not to those who begin with "how" or even "why" but to those bold enough to begin with "wow." As artificial intelligence and automation reshape the world, Harris offers a compelling framework for human relevance rooted in wonder, curiosity, and creativity. This session invites participants to reawaken their imaginations and see how awe—not algorithms—is the key to innovation, leadership, and purpose in the age ahead.
Sabrina's film is an animated conversation between her past, present, and future selves. The whole film was made using actual audio clips from her self when she was younger and the entire script was based around the limited dialog she could find on old home videos.
The film is meant to capture the vulnerable conversations that happen late at night and the thoughts that keep you up when you're anticipating something important the next day.

Entrepreneur and cultural icon Daymond John opens up about the experiences that shaped his hustle, worldview, and success. From the streets of Hollis, Queens to becoming one of Shark Tank’s most trusted investors, Daymond’s story is one of perseverance, reinvention, and purpose.
Why are bad habits so easy to form and so hard to break? In this four-part Spark Salon series, renowned psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and mindfulness expert Dr. Jud Brewer will reveal how our brains get hooked on unhelpful behaviors like anxiety, overeating, doomscrolling, and more—and how we can disrupt these patterns by better understanding the science of habit formation. Drawing from cutting-edge research, Buddhist psychology, and clinical breakthroughs, Dr. Jud introduces a practical, compassionate approach to breaking habits, not through willpower but through awareness, curiosity, and kindness. The first session, held both in person and live-streamed from Unlikely Collaborators, will introduce Dr. Jud’s framework and set the stage for the series. The following three online-only sessions will each dive deep into one of the "three gears" of habit change, providing immersive, experiential opportunities for participants to apply these methods in real time. With interactive breakout discussions and practical tools, this series invites you to expand the walls of your Perception Box™ and build a new relationship with your mind.
Jud Brewer, MD, PhD (“Dr. Jud”) is a New York Times best-selling author and leading authority on habit change and the science of self-mastery. With over 25 years of mindfulness training combined with scientific research, he serves as the Director of Research and Innovation at the Mindfulness Center and as a professor at Brown University. An internationally recognized psychiatrist specializing in mindfulness for addiction, Dr. Jud has developed innovative mindfulness programs—both in-person and app-based—for smoking cessation, emotional eating, and anxiety. He has investigated the neural mechanisms of mindfulness using standard and real-time fMRI and EEG neurofeedback. He has trained U.S. Olympic athletes, coaches, and foreign government ministers. His work has been featured on 60 Minutes and in TED (one of the most-viewed talks of 2016 with over 20 million views), The New York Times, Time, Forbes, BBC, NPR, Al Jazeera, Bloomberg Businessweek, and more. Dr. Jud founded MindSciences—now part of Sharecare Inc.—to bring his discoveries directly to consumers. He also cofounded Mindshift Recovery, a nonprofit aiding those suffering from addiction. He is the author of The Craving Mind (Yale University Press, 2017), the New York Times Best Seller Unwinding Anxiety (Avery/Penguin Random House, 2021), and The Hunger Habit (Avery/Penguin Random House, 2024). For more information, visit www.drjud.com.
Learn more about Spark Salons at salons.unlikelycollaborators.com.
For Vijay Gupta, music is not entertainment. It is a lifeline. He sees art as a way to process pain and grief, transforming them into something that heals and sustains. Described by The New Yorker as “a visionary violinist and a radical thinker in the classical music world,” Gupta creates spaces where people feel seen, connected, and whole. In his talks, he invites us to reconsider how we relate to struggle and shows how creative expression can shift the inner stories that shape our lives.
Described by The New Yorker as “a visionary violinist and a radical thinker in the classical music world,” Vijay Gupta is an internationally celebrated musician, speaker, and advocate who bridges the worlds of art, justice, and healing.
He is the founder and Artistic Director of Street Symphony, a Los Angeles–based nonprofit that has presented thousands of musical workshops and performances in shelters, county jails, state hospitals, and prisons—creating spaces of connection for people in reentry from homelessness, addiction, and incarceration. For Gupta, music is not entertainment—it’s a lifeline, a way to process pain, reclaim dignity, and transform grief into belonging.
A member of the first violin section of the Los Angeles Philharmonic for 12 years, Gupta has performed globally as a recitalist, soloist, and chamber musician and is a founding member of the Darshan Piano Trio and Tesserae Baroque. His recordings span repertoire from Bach to contemporary composers, and in 2024, he was elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
A dynamic communicator, Gupta has given three TED talks that have garnered millions of views. He has delivered keynote addresses for the American Medical Association, The Richmond Forum, The Aspen Institute, Hallmark, Accenture, the Mayo Clinic, the U.S. Psychiatric and Mental Health Congress, and the League of American Orchestras. In 2026, Grand Central Publishing will release his memoir, Restrung, exploring loss, resilience, and the power of music to transform the human spirit.
Learn more about Spark Salons at salons.unlikelycollaborators.com.
From pregame traditions to team-building exercises, rituals are intertwined in every facet of our lives. Harvard Business School professor Michael Norton, author of The Ritual Effect, shows that rituals play a role in our everyday lives: from building connections to helping us leave work behind at the end of the day. We can transform our unconscious habits into conscious productivity—and rise to challenges and opportunities like never before. Named one of WIRED’s 50 People Who Will Change the World, Michael demonstrates the power of rituals in our teams, our workplaces, our families, and even our marriages.
Michael Norton is a Harvard Business School professor whose work dives into the psychological effects of ritual. His groundbreaking research has proved the importance and flexibility of rituals in our everyday lives—they affect our feelings, thoughts, and even behaviors. Michael shows that rituals can bind us together as a community, which makes for stronger teams who coordinate and find meaning in their work, and explores the role that rituals play in our families, our friendships, and our marriages. Michael shows us the power of ritual in our personal lives and our workplaces. His groundbreaking book, The Ritual Effect, has been called “endlessly fascinating” (Dan Pink, Drive) and “an eye-opening window into why we swear by certain routines—and how we can build more enriching ones” (Adam Grant, Think Again).
Michael has also researched personal finance and spending—specifically, how to use money to get happier. Along with fellow professor Elizabeth Dunn, he’s the co-author of the book Happy Money: The Science of Happier Spending, which proved that we’re going about spending our money all wrong. With five practical principles on how to increase happiness by changing the philosophy behind spending, Happy Money is “a rare combination of informed science writing, rollicking good fun, and practical pointers for a more flourishing and compassionate life” (David G. Myers, The Pursuit of Happiness). His TEDx talk, which draws on this research, has been viewed over four million times.
Michael has appeared on National Public Radio, CBS, Fox, and MSNBC, cohosted Talking Green, a podcast on how people really interact with money, and written op-eds for The New York Times, Forbes, and The Wall Street Journal. His research has been featured in publications like Psychological Science, Journal of Consumer Research, and Journal of Marketing Research, has been covered by The Economist, The Financial Times, and The Washington Post, and has been parodied by The Onion.
Learn more about Spark Salons at salons.unlikelycollaborators.com.
Curious minds. Brave questions. Unexpected connections.
From myth to mindfulness to the science of awe, the Spark Salon speaker series brings together voices that will challenge, inspire, and expand your perspective.

According to neuroscientists and psychiatrists, healing begins with awareness and compassionate connection.
Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, Dr. Wendy Suzuki, and Dr. James Doty explain how trauma and anxiety are processed through both the brain and body: trauma isn’t just what happens to us, but how our nervous system holds onto it, disrupting our ability to feel safe, connect with others, and think clearly.
Often a feeling people want to avoid, anxiety actually functions to motivate action and can be leveraged as a tool for focus and productivity. Through breathwork, mindfulness, and reshaping negative internal dialogue, we can begin to retrain the brain, regulate the body, and support a lifetime of growth.

Do Kids Think Rules Are Meant to Be Broken?
HiHo and Unlikely Collaborators teamed up to ask 100 kids just that—exploring how young minds view right, wrong, and everything in between.Inspired by the Perception Box framework.

What if the way you see the world is shaped by trauma you haven’t fully processed?
Psychiatrist Bessel van der Kolk, author of The Body Keeps the Score, explains how trauma isn't just remembered, it is physically lived and relived through the body and brain.
He describes how traditional talk therapy often fails to reach the survival centers of the brain where trauma resides. Instead, healing comes through visceral experiences that help rewire perception, build a sense of safety, and reconnect the self. Through movement, touch, psychodrama, and even psychedelics, the brain can learn to see the present as safe again.
About Bessel van der Kolk:
Bessel van der Kolk, M.D., is a pioneering psychiatrist and trauma researcher, best known for his work on post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). He authored the bestselling book The Body Keeps the Score, which explores how trauma reshapes both body and brain. As founder of the Trauma Research Foundation, he has led innovative treatments combining neuroscience, psychotherapy, and body-based approaches to healing trauma. His work has transformed trauma care worldwide.

“I want people to know that their lives matter and that their deaths ultimately will too.” How a journey to Cuba made Alua Arthur confront her own mortality, and ultimately led her to her career as a death doula.
Alua Arthur, a death doula, never expected to find her calling in the space between life and death. Struggling with depression and a sense of not belonging, she was searching for meaning when a chance encounter in Cuba changed everything.
After encountering death in her personal life, she began to confront her own mortality—and realize she wasn’t truly living. This moment, combined with the loss of her brother-in-law, set her on a path to becoming a death doula, someone who supports people through their final days. Now, she is an author, a (public speaker), and has dedicated her career to helping others embrace life by acknowledging its inevitable end.
About Alua Arthur:
Alua Arthur is a death doula, end-of-life care expert, and founder of Going with Grace, a nonprofit dedicated to helping individuals navigate the final chapter of their lives. After struggling with depression and identity, Alua found purpose in guiding others through the dying process with compassion and dignity. She has dedicated her life to empowering people to face death with grace, offering support to both individuals and their families.

Gracie Gold’s battle with mental health nearly ended her career—and her life. This is how she found her way back to herself.
Gracie Gold, a two-time national champion and Olympic medalist, seemed to embody perfection. But behind the medals and the headlines, her obsession with being flawless led her to a breaking point. After the 2016 World Championships, she spiraled into depression, binge-eating, and a complete loss of identity.
Feeling trapped and out of place, Gold hit rock bottom before seeking help at a treatment facility. There, she finally “met herself,” learning to let go of perfection and accepting “okay” as enough. Now, she’s a mental health advocate and a New York Times bestselling author.
About Gracie Gold:
Gracie Gold is an American figure skater known for her technical skill, artistry, and resilience. Born in 1995, she rose to prominence by winning the U.S. national title in 2014 and earning a bronze medal at the 2014 Winter Olympics in the team event. Gold also claimed silver at the 2016 World Championships, solidifying her status as one of the sport’s top competitors. After facing mental health challenges that led to a hiatus, she made a remarkable comeback, advocating for mental health awareness in athletics.

Can psychedelics under anesthesia heal trauma? What is the latest research around ketamine, MDMA, and psilocybin? That’s part of what we explore this week on Science of Perception Box. Stanford anesthesiologist Dr. Boris Heifets joins Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch to discuss the latest research on the first double-blind study on Ketamine, the placebo effect, and the therapeutic value of anesthesia-induced dreams.
Dr. Boris Heifets, MD, PhD, is a board certified anesthesiologist who specializes in providing anesthesia for neurological surgery. He has practiced at Stanford since 2010. After completing residency training at Stanford, Dr. Heifets completed fellowship training in neuroanesthesiology, also at Stanford. In addition to treating patients, Dr. Heifets directs both clinical research and basic neuroscience. His research group studies how new rapid-acting psychiatric therapies like ketamine, MDMA, and psilocybin produce lasting changes in nervous system function, behavior, and therapeutic outcomes.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.

Ever wonder why time seems to fly or crawl? From ancient philosophers to modern neuroscientists, the nature of time has captivated human curiosity. This week on Science of Perception Box, we investigate the relationships among time, memory, and perception. Dr. Davachi shares the mechanisms of how the brain encodes and retrieves memories, including why emotions and feelings play a role in our perception of time.
Lila Davachi is a prominent neuroscientist known for her research in the field of memory. She earned her PhD from Yale University in 1999 and currently holds a faculty position at Columbia University, where she leads the Davachi Memory Lab. Her work primarily focuses on understanding the processes of memory encoding, consolidation, and retrieval through behavioral and cognitive neuroscientific methods.
Dr. Davachi has made significant contributions to the understanding of how memories are formed and maintained in the brain. She has published extensively in academic journals, with her research being highly cited within the scientific community. In addition to her research, she is actively involved in teaching and mentoring students in psychology and neuroscience.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation as well as the current Meritorious Investigator and Former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app or tell a friend about the show.

When was the last time you felt absolutely mesmerized by something beautiful? Whether it’s seeing a breathtaking vista, losing yourself in a piece of music, or being in a crowd cheering for the same team, the feeling of awe can be all-encompassing and expansive. This week on Science of Perception Box, Dr. Dacher Keltner, one of the world’s foremost emotion scientists and a scientific advisor behind Pixar’s Inside Out, shares how we can cultivate more awe in our life and why we need this sometimes overlooked emotion.
Dr. Keltner is a professor of psychology at UC Berkeley and the faculty director of the Greater Good Science Center. He has over 200 scientific publications and six books, including Born to Be Good, The Compassionate Instinct, and The Power Paradox. Dr. Keltner is involved with the education of health care providers and judges and has consulted extensively for Google, Apple, and Pinterest on issues related to emotion and well-being.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School Of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for The Tiny Blue Dot Foundation as well as the current Meritorious investigator and Former President of the Allen Institute For Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Wednesday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music or wherever podcasts are found.
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How can parents embrace science in order to give their children the best possible environment to thrive in? Cognitive development expert Dr. Alison Gopnik joins us to discuss how navigating challenges fosters healthier adults, likening caregiving to being a gardener creating an environment where various ”plants” can thrive in different conditions. Exposing children to diverse environments helps them develop better coping mechanisms, akin to how the immune system strengthens against viruses.
Dr. Gopnik is a professor at the University of California at Berkeley, where she has taught since 1988. She is a world leader in cognitive science, particularly the study of children’s learning and development. She is the author of over 100 journal articles and several books including the best-selling and critically acclaimed popular books The Scientist in the Crib, The Philosophical Baby, and The Gardener and the Carpenter. She is a fellow of the Cognitive Science Society and the American Association for the Advancement of Science and a member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
We long for love. We die for love. We kill for love. But why do we love? Cohosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch ask this question to Helen Fisher, PhD. who dedicated her career to researching romantic love. In this episode of Science of Perception Box, we explore how the act of being in love or out of love changes how we view ourselves and the world around us.
Dr. Fisher was a biological anthropologist, Senior Research Fellow at The Kinsey Institute, and Chief Science Advisor to Match.com. She used brain scanning (fMRI) to study the neural systems associated with the sex drive, romantic love, attachment, rejection, love addiction, long-term partnership happiness, and the biological foundations of human personality. She conducted extensive research on the evolution, biology, and psychology of human sexuality, monogamy, adultery, and divorce.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
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What happens when an irredeemable person receives love, gratitude, and respect? After decades of drug and alcohol abuse, chef and television personality Andrew Zimmern learned firsthand.
As a teenager, Andrew Zimmern experienced deep pain when his mother became permanently disabled, and his father enforced a rule to avoid discussing feelings. Without an outlet, that pain grew into resentment and substance abuse. By 14, Zimmern was drinking daily, and his addiction followed him into adulthood, ultimately costing him his career, relationships, and home.
In January 1992, after hitting rock bottom, Zimmern attempted to take his own life. When he woke up, something shifted. For the first time, he asked for help. His friends intervened, sending him to rehab, where he began confronting his emotions and embracing a mindset of learning and giving.
Zimmern rebuilt his life, becoming a celebrated chef, author, and TV personality. Today, he credits that one vulnerable moment with saving his life and inspiring him to live with purpose and gratitude.
About Andrew Zimmern:
Andrew Zimmern is a chef, food writer, and television personality best known for hosting Bizarre Foods on the Travel Channel. A four-time James Beard Award winner, Zimmern has dedicated his career to exploring global cuisines and advocating for culinary diversity. Beyond television, he is a passionate philanthropist, focusing on hunger relief, food sustainability, and social justice. He founded the Andrew Zimmern Project to support food security initiatives and works with organizations like Second Harvest and Services for the Underserved. Through his work, Zimmern strives to create a more equitable food system and inspire cultural appreciation through cuisine.

The one phrase that changed Diana Nyad’s life, and set her on course to become the first person ever to conquer the 110 mile, 53 hour swim from Florida to Cuba.
At 64, Diana Nyad swam 110 miles from Cuba to Florida, facing jellyfish, exhaustion, and tough ocean currents for over 53 hours. But this feat was more than just physical - it was the result of a lifetime of mental endurance.
As a young swimmer, she faced sexual abuse from her coach, which derailed her Olympic dreams and left deep emotional scars. Instead of letting those experiences hold her back, she found a way to channel that pain into something powerful. She talks about developing a "steel trap mind," using her struggles as motivation to pursue her goals.
Diana's journey goes beyond breaking records. It’s a powerful reminder of the human spirit's ability to persevere and heal, no matter the odds. Her swim from Cuba to Florida, completed on her fifth attempt, showcases her incredible willpower and serves as an inspiration to people everywhere.
About Diana Nyad: Diana Nyad is an endurance swimmer, author, and motivational speaker best known for her 2013 record-breaking swim from Cuba to Florida at age 64. Completing the 110-mile journey without a shark cage, she demonstrated unparalleled resilience and determination. Nyad is also a bestselling author, journalist, and co-founder of EverWalk, a fitness initiative promoting community through walking. Her story of perseverance, chronicled in her memoir Find a Way, continues to inspire audiences worldwide.

“I saw that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, and when I didn’t believe them, I didn’t suffer.”
Author and public speaker Byron Katie shares how she transformed her life after discovering ‘The Work’, a method for identifying the thoughts that cause pain and suffering. By asking herself four simple yet profound questions, she found a way to recover from her agoraphobia, reunite with her family, and begin teaching others how to heal.
Katie’s strategy for ending suffering lies in asking yourself four questions about the thoughts you’re having: Is it true? Can you absolutely know it’s true? How do you react when you believe it? Who are you without the thought?
By asking yourself these questions, Katie explains how you can begin to escape the mentalities that hold you back. Her method shows us that peace doesn’t come from changing the world—it comes from changing how we see it.
About Byron Katie: Byron Katie is an author and teacher who helps people find peace by questioning their stressful thoughts. In 1986, after years of depression, she experienced a life-changing realization that led her to create The Work, a simple process of self-inquiry. Her books, like Loving What Is and A Thousand Names for Joy, have touched millions. Through workshops and talks, Katie shares a path to clarity and freedom, helping people live with more acceptance and ease.
Our cultural lenses can expand our Perception Box or contract it, keeping us closed off to new opportunities. So how do we become aware of the personal influences that shape our perceptions? In this episode of Science of Perception Box, cohosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch discuss the impact of cultural differences on identity and mindsets with guest Dr. Daphna Oyserman. Dr. Oyserman shares her insights on how small changes in context can significantly affect our mindset and choices, impacting our health and academic performance.
Dr. Daphna Oyserman is a Dean’s Professor of Psychology and Professor of Psychology and Education at the University of Southern California. Dr. Oyserman received a PhD in psychology and social work from the University of Michigan and served on the faculty of The Hebrew University, Jerusalem, before returning to the University of Michigan where she last held appointments as the Edwin J. Thomas Collegiate Professor of Social Work, Professor of Psychology, and Research Professor in the Institute for Social Research.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
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What is the mind? Does the mind exist only in your own Perception Box, or is there a greater connection of consciousness? In this episode of Science of Perception Box, cohosts Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christoph Koch discuss the interconnectedness of the mind, the impact of implicit memories from infancy on childhood attachment, and the wheel of awareness with Dr. Dan Siegel. Dr. Siegel shares his research and practices on healing unresolved trauma, preventing burnout for caregivers and medical professionals, and channeling the Perception Box-expanding power of empathy.
Dr. Siegel is the Executive Director of the Mindsight Institute and Founding Co-Director of the Mindful Awareness Research Center at UCLA, where he was also Co-Principal Investigator of the Center for Culture, Brain, and Development and Clinical Professor at the School of Medicine. An award-winning educator, he is a Distinguished Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association and recipient of several honorary fellowships. He has authored numerous articles and books, including five New York Times bestsellers.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
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Visit unlikelycollaborators.com for more information.
Humans have a symbiotic relationship with plants. Plants coevolved to suit our desires for nourishment, beauty, and altering consciousness. Journalist Michael Pollan has investigated the human connection to plants. This week on Science of Perception Box, Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch ask Pollan about modern trends like ultra-processed foods, industrialized agriculture, and consciousness-altering drugs from plants including caffeine, cannabis, and psychedelics.
For more than 30 years, Michael Pollan has been writing books and articles about the places where the human and natural worlds intersect: on our plates, in our farms and gardens, and in our minds. Pollan is the author of eight books, six of which have been New York Times bestsellers. In 2003, Pollan was appointed the John S. and James L. Knight Professor of Journalism at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism and the director of the Knight Program in Science and Environmental Journalism. In 2020, along with Dacher Keltner and others, he cofounded the UC Berkeley Center for the Science of Psychedelics.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.

Jim McKelvey, co-founder of Square, overcame a challenging upbringing marked by social isolation and family tragedy, channeling those experiences into a life defined by action, innovation, and iconoclasm. Though he’s undeniably earned his reputation as a business trailblazer, McKelvey remains uncomfortable with any attempts to mythologize his journey.

As a child, Bob Stiller felt unmoored. His mother’s death was a loss that fueled anger, insecurity and, as a teenager, lots of partying. He founded rolling paper company E-Z Wider in 1971 and, a decade later, Green Mountain Coffee Roasters.

Sophia Amoruso (aka Nasty Gal) started a tiny online vintage clothing store that quickly turned into a $350 million business. Fame soon followed, but so did all of her insecurities.
Anxiety can make us feel like we’re trapped in our brain. So how do we open the door and gain freedom? This week in the inaugural episode of Science of Perception Box podcast, Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch invite Dr. Judson Brewer to delve into the roots of anxiety, its impact on our perception, and how curiosity can be the key to lasting change.
Dr. Judson Brewer studies the neural mechanisms of mindfulness. He is the Director of Research and Innovation at Brown University’s Mindfulness Center, where he’s also an Associate Professor at the School of Medicine. Dr. Brewer is a leading expert in the science of self-mastery and breaking habits. His books include Unwinding Anxiety, The Craving Mind, and The Hunger Habit.
Dr. Heather Berlin is a neuroscientist, clinical psychologist, and Professor of Psychiatry and Neuroscience at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York City.
Dr. Christof Koch is Chief Scientist for the Tiny Blue Dot Foundation and the current Meritorious Investigator and former President of the Allen Institute for Brain Science.
Join us for new episodes every Thursday. Follow the show on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever podcasts are found.
Love the show? Write us a review on your podcast app, or tell a friend about the show.
Join renowned scientists Dr. Heather Berlin and Dr. Christof Koch on the Science of Perception Box, where they delve into the Perception Box—a groundbreaking concept developed by Elizabeth R. Koch, that reveals how our beliefs, biases, and neural wiring shape our reality and define how we experience the world.
Through captivating conversations with expert guests like psychiatrist Dr. Judson Brewer, anthropologist Dr. Helen Fisher, and journalist Michael Pollan, the show explores how the Perception Box expands in states of awe, curiosity, and love, and contracts during fear, anxiety, or anger.
From mindfulness and romantic relationships to psychedelics and human connection, each episode uncovers transformative insights into unlocking greater awareness, fostering curiosity, and reshaping how we perceive the world.
New episodes drop every Thursday on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow the journey and redefine your reality.

Don’t call yourself “a writer,” just write. Ryan Holiday on how the labels you give yourself can hold you back.
Who would you be without all the labels and identities you’ve collected over the course of your life?
Ego, titles, and societal expectations often shape who we think we are—or who we think we should be. Author, and for simplicity's sake, bookstore owner, Ryan Holiday explains the simple question “What do you do?” can turn into a trap, making us cling to roles that don’t really define us. But what happens when you let go of these labels? What if, instead of focusing on the identity of being a writer, you focused on the act of writing itself?
As Holiday got older, he learned that being busy “doing the verb” is far more valuable than obsessing over the noun. It’s easy to get caught up in trying to fit into the “right” categories and titles, but that often means copying, comparing, and losing sight of what really matters.
About Ryan Holiday: Ryan Holiday is a bestselling author, marketer, and one of today’s leading voices in modern Stoicism. He’s known for taking ancient wisdom and making it relatable and practical for everyday life. Before becoming an author, he led marketing at American Apparel. Now, he writes about strategy, self-discipline, and leadership, weaving history into real-world advice.

When a group of first responders were asked to confront the Perception Box question, "What need inside of yourself have you been neglecting?", their raw and honest responses were deeply moving and sparked profound reflection.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.

“I feel like I had to lose my sight to fully gain my vision.” John Furniss on how becoming blind led him to drug abuse, rehab, woodworking, and finally, to a fulfilling life.
John Furniss, also known as the Blind Woodsman, opens up about his journey from a difficult past to finding peace and purpose. After losing his sight as a teenager, John struggled for years to accept his new reality, battling inner turmoil and substance abuse along the way. It wasn't until he discovered woodworking through a vocational rehab program that he found a way to channel his creativity and start healing.
Woodworking became more than just a skill for John; it allowed him to bring the designs he imagined in his mind to life. This craft also led him to meet his wife, Annie, who has been a constant source of love and support. Through his work and his relationship, John found a sense of belonging and a new way of seeing the world. He reflects on how losing his sight actually helped him gain a clearer vision of who he is and what he’s meant to do, ultimately finding peace in embracing his true self.
About John Furniss:
John Furniss, known professionally as The Blind Woodsman, is a skilled woodworker, author, and disability advocate recognized for his meticulous hand-turned creations. After losing his sight at 16, John faced significant challenges adapting to life with total blindness. In his 20s, he found his passion for woodworking through a class designed for the blind, which led to the development of his unique craft.
Today, John’s work has been featured on platforms such as Good Morning America and The Kelly Clarkson Show. He and his wife, Anni, who is also an artist, use their social media platforms to share their work and raise awareness about disability and mental health. John’s expertise in woodworking and his contributions to the art community have established him as a respected figure in his field.

Kaelynn Partlow shares her story about life with autism, ADHD, and dyslexia, and how finding the right diagnosis helped her embrace her neurodivergent identity.
Kaelynn Partlow, an author, autism advocate, and registered behavior technician, shares her own experiences living with autism, ADHD, dyslexia, and more. She talks about how these diagnoses shifted her self-perception from feeling "stupid" to understanding her unique challenges and strengths.
Kaelynn opens up about the misunderstandings neurodivergent people face and the difficulty of connecting in a world that often doesn't accommodate different ways of thinking. She also shares her fears—like wondering if her social difficulties will ever improve—and how she copes with loneliness, especially when not focused on work.
Through it all, Kaelynn emphasizes the value of recognizing your own strengths, even when it’s hard. By taking on challenges and thriving under pressure, she found new opportunities, from public speaking to creative writing. Her story shows that growth often comes from facing fears and redefining success on your own terms.
About Kaelynn Partlow:
In 2015, Kaelynn Partlow joined Project Hope Foundation as a Registered Behavior Technician. She is now a Lead Technician, providing services to middle and high-school-aged clients and contributing to staff training development.
In 2021, Kaelynn was featured on the Netflix series Love On The Spectrum. She has also been a guest on numerous national podcasts and has published several articles, offering insights from an autistic perspective.
With a large following on various social media platforms, Kaelynn uses her reach for autism advocacy, connecting with millions globally. In addition to her online work and role at Project Hope, she is an international public speaker, passionate about sharing tangible strategies for best practices when interacting with individuals on the autism spectrum

Your brain is wired to repeat the familiar. Change this wiring, and it will change your life.
Nicole Vignola, a neuroscientist and organizational psychologist, explains how deeply rooted beliefs can limit our potential and keep us trapped in patterns of thought. These perceptions, often shaped by our upbringing and environment, aren’t necessarily our own—but they can be changed.
Nicole shares how the brain’s natural biases, like negativity bias and confirmation bias, reinforce these limiting beliefs. However, with the right approach, it’s possible to reshape our mental patterns. By practicing metacognition—observing and naming our thoughts—we can start to rewire our perception and create new, empowering narratives.
Our brains are capable of change at any age. By focusing on small wins and challenging automatic thoughts, we can break free from old beliefs and begin using a mindset that better serves ourselves and our futures.
About Nicole Vignola:
Nicole Vignola is a neuroscientist, author and corporate consultant. With a BSc in Neuroscience and an MSc in Organizational Psychology, Nicole works with companies and individuals worldwide, educating them on the science of human optimisation, health and longevity, and how to enable employees to perform better in their daily lives and in turn, bring peak performance to the workplace. Recent clients include Lloyds Bank, Makers Mark and Smeg Ltd.
Expanding your worldview starts with understanding your brain. Stanford neuroscientist David Eagleman explains.
David Eagleman, a neuroscientist at Stanford and host of the Inner Cosmos podcast, explores how our brains shape the reality we experience and why we often accept our perceptions as the only truth. From a young age, we develop our understanding of the world based on limited experiences and biases, which can lead us to form narrow views about what's true.
Eagleman explains that our genetics and life experiences wire our brains in unique ways, meaning that each of us sees the world a little differently. He introduces the idea of "perceptual genomics," which looks at how slight genetic differences influence our perception of reality. He also discusses how our brains naturally create in-groups and out-groups, a tendency rooted in evolution that affects how much empathy we feel for others.
To overcome these biases, Eagleman suggests that we start by recognizing our own prejudices, understanding the tactics of dehumanization, and connecting with others through shared interests. This approach helps us appreciate the diverse realities others experience, ultimately contributing to a more empathetic and understanding society.
About David Eagleman:
David Eagleman is a neuroscientist at Stanford University and an internationally bestselling author. He is co-founder of two venture-backed companies, Neosensory and BrainCheck, and he also directs the Center for Science and Law, a national non-profit institute. He is best known for his work on sensory substitution, time perception, brain plasticity, synesthesia, and neurolaw.

Challenging the loneliness stigma can change your life. Here’s how to start.
From a young age, many of us are taught that being alone means something is wrong, leading to negative thought patterns that reinforce feelings of isolation. Kasley Killam, author of The Art and Science of Connection and an expert in social health, explains how these perceptions of loneliness can shape our experiences and influence our lives.
According to Killam, this stigma around loneliness can trigger a stress response in the body, affecting both mental and physical well being. However, by challenging these narratives and reminding ourselves of how much control we really have, it’s possible to redirect our mindsets. It also helps, she says, to understand the difference between individualistic and collectivist cultures, and how each one can influence the way we interpret and discuss our feelings with others.
For those who have struggled with loneliness or felt trapped in a cycle of negative thinking, this perspective can help us break free. By shifting our thought patterns, we can transform our relationships, enhance our sense of connection, and improve our overall well-being.
About Kasley Killam:
Kasley Killam is a social health expert, author, and advocate focused on strengthening connections and enhancing community well-being. With a background in behavioral science and public health from Harvard University, she is a leading voice on the impact of social relationships on mental and physical health.
As the founder of Social Health Labs, Killam collaborates with organizations to develop innovative solutions for combating loneliness and social isolation. Her work has been featured in major publications, and she is a sought-after speaker on the importance of social well-being in creating healthier, more resilient communities.

Ever wonder why your partner goes Tasmanian Devil in traffic jams while you just shrug? Or why you have such a hard time setting boundaries with parents when your sibling has no problem saying "hell no!" Everyone has something that triggers panic or turns their blood cold…and it all starts with the story you made up about yourself when you were too young to know the difference…your Perception Box Seed Story.

A group of LGBTQ+ individuals courageously answered the Perception Box question, "Who or what have you left behind on your journey to become who you are today?" Their honest and insightful responses were deeply moving.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.

How has Kel Mitchell navigated self-doubt, isolation, and the desire to “hit the off button”? He says it’s all faith, community, and personal forgiveness.
After his debut on Nickelodeon, Kel Mitchell began a life-long career as an actor and comedian. He got married, started a family, and basked in professional success. However, behind the scenes, he faced intense personal hardships that pushed him to the brink, testing his resilience and strength in ways he never imagined.
Kel guides us through the lowest points of his life, showing us how faith in himself and his religion helped him rebuild and achieve a fulfilling existence. He reminds us that blessings can often be hidden in hardships and that mistakes play a crucial role in shaping who we are.
By expressing his pain and opening up to others about the things he was struggling with, he was able to find unity, community, and support from those who had experienced similar drawbacks. Mitchell stresses the importance of understanding others, and how deep relationships can change – and even save – lives.
If you or someone you know is considering suicide, please contact the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255), text “STRENGTH” to the Crisis Text Line at 741-741 or go to suicidepreventionlifeline.org.
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Kel Mitchell is a two-time Emmy Award-nominated actor, producer, comedian, and youth pastor hailing from Chicago, Illinois.
Mitchell executive produced and appeared in the new iteration of the beloved Nickelodeon series All That, bringing him full circle to the original award-winning show that was his big break. All That was Nickelodeon's longest-running live-action series, with 171 episodes across ten seasons from 1994 to 2005. The franchise paved the way for a number of successful spin-offs, including Kenan & Kel, The Amanda Show, The Nick Cannon Show, and the feature-length film Good Burger, all of which cemented Mitchell's impact on pop culture.
A two-part visualization to help you gain distance from any overpowering emotion so you can respond to the true need of the moment with something closer to calm.

Harvard physician Aditi Nerukar explains how to rewire your brain’s stress response to live a more resilient life.
If you’ve ever heard the phrase “pressure makes diamonds,” this video is for you.
Harvard physician Aditi Nerurkar was working 80 hours a week, and, despite what she was telling herself about resilience, the stress was taking a major toll. She explains how there are two different kinds of stress, aptly named “adaptive” and “maladaptive.” But how can you tell the difference between the two?
Dr. Nerukar explains that healthy, adaptive stress moves your life forward, while unhealthy, maladaptive stress wears you down and diminishes your productivity. When experiencing maladaptive stress, you may find yourself plummeting closer to burnout, or a complete shutdown. To combat these consequences, Dr. Neurkar offers two easily achievable methods for resetting your brain in high-stress situations.
Whether you're navigating a demanding job, balancing multiple life roles, or simply looking to improve your stress management, this information can help you thrive without compromising your well-being. Remember to slow down, take deep breaths, and regularly check in with yourself to ensure your stress remains healthy and manageable!

Neuroanatomist Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor explains the 4 key ”characters” of the brain, and how understanding each can expand your perception of yourself, and the world, forever.
At age 37, neuroanatomist Dr. Jill Bolte Taylor suffered a stroke that would take her eight years to fully recover from. This is how it changed her understanding of the brain.
In this interview, Dr. Jill draws a map of the human brain, explaining how it is comprised of four distinct modules, each serving a unique role in function and personality. This combination of cognitive and emotional components gives rise to the multidimensional characters within each of us.
Are you looking to be more rational, more creative, more forgiving, or perhaps less rigid in your thinking? Dr. Jill suggests that by becoming aware of the four modules of our brains, we can consciously choose to engage specific parts. This awareness allows us to harness the true power of our brains and shape who we want to become, ultimately fostering less anxiety, more inner peace, and a vastly more purposeful life.

Carrie Berk reveals how she transformed her struggle with anxiety and internet fame by changing her perception and finding her true voice as a writer.
Carrie Berk, author, journalist, and social media influencer with nearly 4 million TikTok followers, shares her journey through anxiety, internet fame, and personal growth.
Amid the pandemic and sudden online fame, Carrie faced intense anxiety, receiving harmful threats from strangers and grappling with the pressures of social media. Sharing her most vulnerable moments, including her first heartbreak at sixteen, Carrie emphasizes the importance of authenticity. Through therapy and self-discovery, she learned that while she couldn’t switch off her anxiety, she could change her response to it.
Carrie’s story is a perfect example of the resilience it takes to be a young person in today’s social climate, and proves how powerful self-confidence and inner strength can be.

This group of people who have experienced homelessness were asked the Perception Box question, "In moments of deep solitude, what major concerns and questions about YOU tend to dominate your thoughts?" Their honest answers were deeply moving and insightful.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.

In this episode, a group of formerly incarcerated individuals was asked the Perception Box question, "What are you most afraid is true about you?" Their candid responses were incredibly moving and thought-provoking.
This series (a collaboration with Jubilee Media) is designed for communities with shared experiences to spark deeper self-understanding and connection by sharing their answers to specially selected Perception Box questions. This highlights the power of vulnerability and the importance of creating safe spaces for honest conversations.

Jewel says denying the truth cost her years of her life. This is how she shifted her perception to see truth more clearly and regain her strength.
“My number one job was to be a happy, whole human — not a human full of holes.” Jewel Kilcher, singer-songwriter, and visual artist, opens up about her childhood, the start of her career, and what makes Jewel, Jewel.
After being discovered during a coffee shop gig in the 1990’s, folk singer Jewel began the life-long endeavor of being a performer. Jewel went on to gain worldwide recognition for her talent and creativity. But who is she at her core? What are her greatest fears, her deepest aspirations?
In this interview, Jewel shares the personal struggles and triumphs that have shaped her, the importance of truth on her life and well-being, and the lessons she's learned along the way. Through this conversation, Jewel offers an up-close look into her journey, revealing the experiences and hard-won insights that have shaped her as both an artist and a person.
Experience Jewel’s latest exhibit at the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, The Portal: An Art Experience by Jewel ► https://crystalbridges.org/calendar/the-portal-an-art-experience-by-jewel/
About Jewel:
Jewel Kilcher, known mononymously as Jewel, embodies the quintessential story of resilience and artistic integrity. From her humble beginnings in the rugged landscapes of Alaska to her rise as a multi-platinum recording artist, Jewel's journey is a testament to the transformative power of art. Homeless at 18, she honed her craft performing in coffee shops, blending folk, pop, and country influences with her ethereal voice and introspective songwriting.
Her debut album, "Pieces of You," captured hearts worldwide, achieving remarkable commercial success while delivering profound, soul-stirring messages. Beyond music, Jewel's talents extend to poetry and acting, with her literary works and performances reflecting her deep empathy and authenticity.
Jewel's commitment to social causes, including mental health advocacy and her foundation, the Inspiring Children Foundation, underscores her dedication to making a positive impact. In a world often dominated by transient fame, Jewel stands out as a beacon of enduring creativity and compassionate leadership.

Alyssa and her ex-boyfriend Trey have successfully transitioned from lovers to best friends. But can she recreate that same dynamic with her most recent ex, Adal? Alyssa, Trey, and Adal dive deep into their pasts and their relationships with each other by answering a series of thought-provoking Perception Box questions. Watch their honest reflections, uncover their perspectives on love and friendship, and discover what the future holds for this unique trio.

What happens when men shed their armor and embrace their emotions? Men from diverse backgrounds share their stories of overcoming trauma, redefining masculinity, and finding strength in vulnerability. This is a must-watch for anyone seeking deeper connections and understanding.
